Particracy Forum

Would it be possible for Moderation to issue a ruling on the question of nuclear weaponry in Baltusia.

1) I refer specifically to claims made by the Baltusian representative that they possess nuclear capable submarines. We were first made aware of these weapons in

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6859#p103464

2) Indrala responded that they had found no evidence of Baltusia building or acquiring weapons:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6859&start=10#p103485

where they said "According to our analysts, Baltusia has no nuclear weapons. They do not have a history of nuclear weapon development, nor has a great power sponsored a nuclear program in Baltusia or gifted Baltusia nuclear weapons. (OOC: This is based on the presumptions of the RP Accord and the RP Team where nuclear weapons are very limited, especially to the Great Powers, which Baltusia is not.) Thus, Kalistan has no need to fear nuclear provocation."

And we agreed. A Baltusian player responded:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6859&start=20#p103516

"*Nuclear Disarment: NO, we shall not disarm our nation of nuclear weapons. Congress is in full support of nuclear weapons ad we will not disarm because of a request by yourselves. It's Baltusias decision to have nuclear weapons and we shall keep them."

And we would note that a desire to have them is not the same thing as actually having them.

I responded:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6859&start=20#p103529

"
OOC: the Question is: Where did you all GET the nuclear weapons? Were you walking down the street one day, and saw a crate marked "Nuclear warheads, 100 per" and then just stockpiled them on bombs and missiles? Did you buy them from someone? Do you have an economy capable of producing them yourselves? Where did you get the technology for that? And why hasn't anyone else outside of Baltusia known about this before now? That's the question, the OOC question, which the rest of us are grappling with."

And Baltusian player answered

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6859&start=30#p103545

"Maureen Granger: We accept all but the nuclear disarmament as I would like to just inform you of the full information. The current government in Baltusia is in full support of our nuclear weapons. We increased defence spending and produced nuclear weapons ourselves. At this time there was an economic boom and our economy can afford this. We would not like for international inspectors to look at our fleet and publicise intelligence into our fleet, which potential enemies could capitalise on. We want them and we will keep them."

To which Kalistan Labour responded: "OOC: As a preface, as far as I personally am concerned I see no realistic way in which Baltusia would have nuclear weapons so, I'm basically just going to ignore the issue. I think you should seriously consider re-evaluating the matter, as it is likely to limit an international RP with Baltusia in future but it ultimately isn't up to me. In terms of how I intend to RP this out, we'll just have Kalistan be forced into conceding on nuclear disarmament. "

And I added:

"OOC:

One does not simply produce nuclear weapons. While the plans are available on the internet, there is a reason why like 7 something countries in the world have them and 200 something countries in the world do not. Nicaragua, no matter how much it wanted them, could not develop nukes. Iran, no matter how much it wants them, has not developed nuclear weapons, despite neighboring Pakistan who did develop them because someone gave them the technology.

Saying "We just produced nuclear weapons" is equivalent to saying "We have just destabilized the regional security order." It will invite a swift and immediate response form Baltusia's neighbors, and it should never have gone unnoticed when it was happening.

I would submit this matter to Moderation, rather than simply letting it stand that Baltusia has nukes. This might be seen as a form of godmodding."


Would Moderation be willing to issue a ruling on whether or not Baltusia has nuclear weapons, and inform Baltusia of their decision? I would invite moderation to speak with Baltusian players and find out where they got these weapons, and how they were able to get away with building them without anyone around them knowing anything about them. I imagine Kalistan would have responded to such a destabilizing movement, had we known. I imagine Indrala would have too, but I can't speak for them.

If Kalistan is not allowed to have a modern navy without RPing, over IG years us building them or acquiring them, I should think nuclear weapons carry at least the same sort of requirements.

Thanks for raising this Doc, especially for summing up the situation so elegantly/concisely. As most long-term readers of this forum will know, there is a tendency for military role-play to become a tricky area in Particracy!

At the beginning of the year we established the Role-Play Accord, the details of which can be seen in section 20 of the rules. The Global Role-Play Team (ie. Kubrick, Liu Che, Polites & Zanz) has some authority to regulate economic and military role-play in nations which have ratified the Accord. Full details of the guidelines they have issued can be seen here. However, since Baltusia has not ratified the Accord, there would be no possibility of the RP Team being able to take this case any further. Kalistan has also not ratified the Accord, by the way, so Kalistan does not come under the regulation of the RP Accord and the RP Team either.

As an aside, so far as I am aware, the RP Team has not issued guidance on the question of which nations are nuclear powers or on the process of how nations might realistically/reasonably be judged to become nuclear powers. Going forward, that could perhaps be an area to consider exploring more closely.

So far as I can establish, there are no grounds to prohibit Baltusia's players from role-playing Baltusia as a nuclear power. If they were to move into the terrain of futuristic speculation and science fiction, such as launching nuclear missiles from other planets etc., then we could deal with that under section 5.9 of the Game Rules, but so far as I am aware, nothing like that has been suggested so far.

Nevertheless, the fact Baltusia's players are able to role-play as though Baltusia is a nuclear power does not mean players from other nations are obligated to recognise/acknowledge that role-play. If you are unhappy with aspects of the role-play, you do not have to continue it with them, and if it directly involves you and they are continuing it, you can approach Moderation to have it declared void.

For more information on the rules concerning consent in role-play, check out the role-play section of the Game Rules, especially section 21 on role-play principles and section 23 on role-play events. To quote the first sentence in section 23,

The default rule is that role-play events can only be done with the consent of all of the players legitimately involved, and that if one of the players withdraws consent for the role-play, then the role-play becomes void.

Although under certain conditions, also outlined in section 23, it is possible to use an OOC RP Event bill to pursue a role-play without the consent of a minority of players.

So to sum up: you can't prevent the Baltusians from claiming they have nuclear weapons, but at the same time, they can't compel you to acknowledge their claim that they have them. If you're unhappy with the role-play you're engaged in with them, you're free to say "No" to it and they would need to respect that.