Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Threads from before the Dec 15, 2023 migration.

Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Amazeroth » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:13 pm

Dynastia wrote:When I invented the treaty lockout/perpetual earlies/pre-loaded inactives system (yes, it was me, sorry) it was all but unstoppable once it was in place, and despite what people are saying about it being 'eventually' combatable, if you put enough time into creating high-visibility backups for when your dictatorship ran out of visibility, you could extend your control for a ridiculously long time. Indefinitely, really, if you took the time to unlock, pass some bills and then relock every time you got a brief window where all opposing parties left. Nobody's going to hang around in a nation long enough for 30 fully visible parties to run out of visibility, one after another. Luckily, we held back on being quite so evil, and never kept a nation locked down for longer than it took for a fully visible party to lose visibility three or four times over.

But back when we were using those tactics, the world was pretty close to full. We didn't consider it an especially dirty tactic to bumrush a nation and treatylock it because it took a fair bit of planning, co-ordination and effort to get that 2/3rd majority in a nation with 5+ opponents, especially since we usually only had 2-3 players available for foreign bumrushing and couldn't rely on numbers alone. So while it was a significantly threatening tactic, I believe it became acceptable within the community mainly because everyone understood that it took a dedicated team to pull it off, you could see it coming if you knew what to look for, we could be quite easily foiled if you saw us coming and took preemptive measures, and we had no chance of winning a supermajority against twice as many opposing parties unless they were so ridiculously stupid that they thought the best way to defeat us was to all vote together against everything we proposed, and didn't notice that all of us except our 'designated opposition' kept swapping their votes at the last minute to help split the natives. (sadly, a lot of players were this stupid)

But when I look at how many parties the average nation has now, it disturbs me to think of how easily a single player, with no planning, could just grab up an empty nation and lock it down. I think if this tactic wasn't discovered until today, it would not be accepted at all by the community. And I think the only reason it's accepted now is because the precedent was set back when it was so difficult to get into a position to lockdown a nation, and so easy to prevent a bumrush. Now, with all the vacant nations, I think perhaps that the moderation should take another look at the tactic, while completely ignoring the fact that it's been acceptable for so long. The precedent was set in a much more active game, where the potential for abuse was much lower. It might be time for a change in policy.


I did it back when I started to play the game, in 2006 or so. With an empty nation, and it still was respected. If nation locking becomes widespread, and thus threatens to eliminate most of the game, a policy change could be in order. But until then, considering that most people don't use backup parties and even treaty locking has not been seen for years, I don't think that a change of policy is needed.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby IdioC » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

To give Dynastia's remarks further context, there were other issues, such as a player repeatedly disregarding both Deltaria's own RP and internally agreed rules*. More often than not, the nation was locked-down in the way described for the benefit of several players working together. Other players party to the nation's style were, at certain times, in neighbouring countries and other areas for the purposes of a very well-planned RP, with shrewd and perfectly acceptable use of the game mechanics. It gave their larger plans a base.

It was a completely different situation. Dynastia may have invented the technique, but it wasn't solely for one player's benefit to lock a nation unopposed. The forum and international RP benefited from Deltaria's infamy, whereas some nations since locked down just become silent pitcher plants for newbies. It would be harsh on the Deltarian Oligarchs to blame their nation's creation for the abuse of despots stifling the creation of nations.

*The player was eventually encouraged to move to another nation for harmony. As much as he was trying to play a straight-up western democracy, he acted with some ignorance towards the nation and its players, so it was better to move one player than three to find somewhere he could fit in. Spot the Pax Cyn clause this gave rise to...

Zanz, I think it might have been the IRC channel as I wasn't in the NS World Cup. I had a UN Resolution with Fict Pro back in the day but otherwise wasn't much involved. I would say it's good to see you settled in, but I think that's an understatement when you've got the reins of power!

Farsun, cheers for the welcome. I float by every now and again but ex-moderators can be a shady bunch, so I try to keep out of the way. They usually leave or step down for a reason, sometimes try to return to play and often cite "experience" in the moderation forum for thinking they can do things better, rather than let the current moderator team improve things and adapt them to current playing opinion. A bit like the armchair criticisms you get in newspapers from grumpy retired politicians really.

I'll stick to the odd bit of historical context to explain things but it won't be a playing return. For now, at least...
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Farsun » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:35 pm

IdioC wrote:To give Dynastia's remarks further context, there were other issues, such as a player repeatedly disregarding both Deltaria's own RP and internally agreed rules*. More often than not, the nation was locked-down in the way described for the benefit of several players working together. Other players party to the nation's style were, at certain times, in neighbouring countries and other areas for the purposes of a very well-planned RP, with shrewd and perfectly acceptable use of the game mechanics. It gave their larger plans a base.

It was a completely different situation. Dynastia may have invented the technique, but it wasn't solely for one player's benefit to lock a nation unopposed. The forum and international RP benefited from Deltaria's infamy, whereas some nations since locked down just become silent pitcher plants for newbies. It would be harsh on the Deltarian Oligarchs to blame their nation's creation for the abuse of despots stifling the creation of nations.

*The player was eventually encouraged to move to another nation for harmony. As much as he was trying to play a straight-up western democracy, he acted with some ignorance towards the nation and its players, so it was better to move one player than three to find somewhere he could fit in. Spot the Pax Cyn clause this gave rise to...

Zanz, I think it might have been the IRC channel as I wasn't in the NS World Cup. I had a UN Resolution with Fict Pro back in the day but otherwise wasn't much involved. I would say it's good to see you settled in, but I think that's an understatement when you've got the reins of power!

Farsun, cheers for the welcome. I float by every now and again but ex-moderators can be a shady bunch, so I try to keep out of the way. They usually leave or step down for a reason, sometimes try to return to play and often cite "experience" in the moderation forum for thinking they can do things better, rather than let the current moderator team improve things and adapt them to current playing opinion. A bit like the armchair criticisms you get in newspapers from grumpy retired politicians really.

I'll stick to the odd bit of historical context to explain things but it won't be a playing return. For now, at least...


Always welcomed, now continue your work on the Jelbic language and I might just fall in love with you.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Dynastia » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:47 pm

You'd better not. He never sees me anymore, never calls me, and I can't remember the last time child support wasn't late.

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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Aquinas » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:31 am

TheNewGuy wrote:Since I have a new fellow in Wantuni, I figured I'd take the opportunity to be proactive here and messaged him what could potentially become my catch-all message to new players. Have a look and let me know what you think. I think it's certainly better than how I handled the situation that lead to this thread, at least:

Zanz wrote:OOC: Hey, welcome to Wantuni!

My name is Zanz, I am the leading party currently in power in Wantuni. Are you new to the game or just to this nation?

I wanted to fill you in a bit on what's going on in Wantuni, either way. My party, Wantuni Strength, took control of Wantuni some time ago representing the Wantuni (RL equivalent: Arabs) minority. When we did so we harshly oppressed the Kalopian (RL equivalent: Greeks) majority, committing what is more and more frequently being called a "genocide" by the international community.

In order to maintain this power, my party has demanded total control of the senate. To ensure this they have called for early elections every time a new party threatens to gain visibility and challenge their control in government. This is a move that I have done for IC (In Character) roleplay reasons, but OOC (Out of Character) it is a tactic that is seen as underhanded and manipulative by some. This is why I write you today.

My party is a dictatorship. It will stop at no end to maintain power. This is represented IC through these early elections as essentially "rigged elections." OOC this tactic is strong and may keep you out of government for some time, which can be frustrating and disappointing, but it is not invincible. As my party continuously calls early elections its visibility will drop and some day you may catch up to me.

OR if you're willing to RP with me (which is what I really want) we can come to some sort of arrangement to end my use of this tactic and use the underlying fragile nature of my system against itself. All dictatorships fall, after all, and I am totally ready to let mine fall too, but I want it to go down in a blaze of roleplay!

So if you have any questions, please contact me and let me know. Basically, just don't take anything I do personally if it frustrates you, as I really do hope that we can become friends through this. If roleplaying in this kind of situation does not sound intriguing to you, I also must stress that this situation is not the norm in Particracy and if you should decide to leave Wantuni I hope you will certainly consider a move to a nation where elections are not "rigged" and you can play in whatever manner you would like!

Regards,

Zanz


A beautifully written message. Actually, it is so good that I wonder whether a slightly modified version of it could form the basis of a "template" message which all dictatorship parties could be encouraged to send to newly-arrived players. It would probably prevent a lot of problems.

Whilst persisting in his project, Zanz is undoubtedly bending over backwards to be accomodating and reasonable. We are apparently stuck with dictatorship players, or at least the potential for dictatorship players, but if we are going to have them, Zanz has shown us how they can be less pariah-like.

Which sounds like it ought to be a good thing. Consider, though: if a player of Zanz's standing, intelligence, roleplay ability and general charm makes a good go of the tactic in Wantuni, and roleplays extensively on Particracy's international stage, and becomes admired for it, then before long another player in another nation will imitate him, and then another, and then another...

And dare I say it...

We might wish we'd never stopped treating 'em like pariahs.

But enough of me being a pessimistic grump. I could be wrong, anyway. This is an experiment, and progress is only made through experiments. So good luck, Zanz.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby IdioC » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:47 pm

It does seem as though the team have hit on a courtesy solution that could save some players, Dynastia's going to get legal advice (I thought your only child was Deltaria though?) and I have to admit Farsun, I find the way the language is still alive after 5-ish years quite remarkable. It would have to be a Jelbic-language party if I returned; the reverse-translation usually gave amusing results...

As much as the Pnték seem in need of help, time is a pain at the moment and the inner moderator is yelling at me for making wistful comments tangential to the topic (I'd have warned myself by now, probably!).

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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby SelucianCrusader » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:56 pm

I for one would be quite grateful if you returned to help us who play in the relevant countries with the grammar and/or to make up new words. :)
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby IdioC » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:14 pm

SelucianCrusader wrote:I for one would be quite grateful if you returned to help us who play in the relevant countries with the grammar and/or to make up new words. :)

Thing is, each nation has done it in a slightly different way depending on players and target culture, as well as in ways slightly grammatically different from what I drafted. I can't come back from on-high and tell people how to use a language they chose to adopt, after all (however much others have asked for Beginners' courses in other topics).

My "Old Jelbék" has already become new "Middle Jelbék/Pnték/Brmék" languages, but that's how real languages go (and how "gotten" came back to the UK for us to misuse, but that's mostly TV...)!

Could come back for some old-style verbiage though. We'll see...
What is that weird Jelbék language what I types with me computer buttons?

"Kae orzy sedrijohylakmek, megàmojylakjek, frjomimek. Kaerjoshu zri? Afrkmojad firja, Kae grzy Zykhiko ajozuo zri?"
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