Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Threads from before the Dec 15, 2023 migration.

Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Farsun » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:10 pm

Aquinas wrote:Using the early election tactic to stop other parties from gaining seats may not be against the game rules, but if I'm honest...I find it difficult not to see it as ungentlemanly and poor gamesmanship. If I was a new player who had joined a nation for the first time and experienced this, I think it might put me off Particracy completely.

If players are going to be allowed to do this, then maybe their nations should be kitemarked in some way, so that any player considering joining is aware of what the situation is.


Agreed, however it is not against any rules so in theory you can't. Also, most of the time it's in nations that you least expect it and sometimes instead of fighting it you get a player such as Zanz who is willing to RP the decline of his own party and power for the fun and experience of it. It's rare, but it does happen.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Zanz » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:18 pm

All of this said, BobMcBobson, I've read your wiki and really liked your work! I hope you'll consider coming back and RPing with me! You left before I could even respond to any of the issues you raised.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Aquinas » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:32 pm

Zanz wrote:All of this said, BobMcBobson, I've read your wiki and really liked your work! I hope you'll consider coming back and RPing with me! You left before I could even respond to any of the issues you raised.


I can't say I blame him, can you? Perhaps you should have had this conversation with him when he first joined Wantuni. And before it became an issue in your own Moderation forum...
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Zanz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:02 am

Aquinas wrote:
Zanz wrote:All of this said, BobMcBobson, I've read your wiki and really liked your work! I hope you'll consider coming back and RPing with me! You left before I could even respond to any of the issues you raised.


I can't say I blame him, can you? Perhaps you should have had this conversation with him when he first joined Wantuni. And before it became an issue in your own Moderation forum...


I can tell you he sent me two messages, both when I was offline and couldn't respond: the first at 23:37 saying I should change my ways or he'd involve moderation, the second at 23:47 saying he'd brought it to moderation. What exactly could I have done in that time frame? And even here SelCru responded to his message before I had read it and explained it in terms that likely made it look impossible to face me rather than simply challenging as I would like for it to be. I have done my best, considering the circumstances.

And I for one support the existence of the tactic (as should be obvious from my use of it). Even if it is scummy OOC, there are precious few means for dictatorships to shape themselves ICly in Particracy because of the fickleness of the election mechanism. A party with a super majority one day can lose it to a completely new party the next day, even if the super majority has held power for years and roleplayed its utter hegemony. As SelCru has pointed out, there are ways around the early election exploit, and everything comes to an end eventually. But that's not a reason to ban this outright.

And as for a referendum, I don't know that it'll do much other than affirm the fact that people don't like this tactic, which they already clearly do not. Its proponents are pariahs OOC already. I think the unfortunate thing is that people are too lazy or self-absorbed to recognize it IC and make the nations that use it IC pariahs as well.

It's very easy for everyone to call me dirty, in short, but no one has acknowledged the depravity of the Wantuni Hegemony IC and what am I playing this game for if not to RP? I certainly don't play just to piss you all off OOC.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Aquinas » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:03 am

Zanz wrote:I can tell you he sent me two messages, both when I was offline and couldn't respond: the first at 23:37 saying I should change my ways or he'd involve moderation, the second at 23:47 saying he'd brought it to moderation. What exactly could I have done in that time frame? And even here SelCru responded to his message before I had read it and explained it in terms that likely made it look impossible to face me rather than simply challenging as I would like for it to be. I have done my best, considering the circumstances.


As I said, you could have discussed having fair elections with your fellow Wantuni players when they first joined Wantuni. Instead of waiting until...this.

Zanz wrote:And I for one support the existence of the tactic (as should be obvious from my use of it). Even if it is scummy OOC, there are precious few means for dictatorships to shape themselves ICly in Particracy because of the fickleness of the election mechanism. A party with a super majority one day can lose it to a completely new party the next day, even if the super majority has held power for years and roleplayed its utter hegemony. As SelCru has pointed out, there are ways around the early election exploit, and everything comes to an end eventually. But that's not a reason to ban this outright.


The name of the game is "Particracy", not "Dictatorship". The game description on the main Particracy page reads "Players propose and vote on legislation, form cabinets, determine economic policy and join international treaties as they compete for votes with other political parties in their nation". How will they do those things if every vote in the legislature is interrupted by an early election? It also reads: "Will your nation be a free market paradise or a socialist utopia? Only the voters will decide." How will the voters decide if every political party apart from one are never allowed any visibility?

And yes, I acknowledge that "there are ways around the early election exploit". But remember they can take a *long* time, Zanz...

Zanz wrote:And as for a referendum, I don't know that it'll do much other than affirm the fact that people don't like this tactic, which they already clearly do not. Its proponents are pariahs OOC already. I think the unfortunate thing is that people are too lazy or self-absorbed to recognize it IC and make the nations that use it IC pariahs as well.


I'm disappointed you are finding me "lazy or self-absorbed", but as I said, so far as I can see, denying new parties the chance to establish themselves smacks of selfish gameplay. Unless, of course, it is a roleplay thing that has been agreed to by all the players in advance. Which in this case it obviously hasn't been.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Zanz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:25 am

Aquinas wrote:As I said, you could have discussed having fair elections with your fellow Wantuni players when they first joined Wantuni. Instead of waiting until...this.


I would have liked to. I wasn't given much opportunity. I do regret the wording of my first reaction to him, in reading it now, it did seem remarkably uncompromising rather than explanatory as it should have been. For that I apologize to BobMcBobson openly and hope that he will stay with the game, whether in Wantuni or otherwise.

Aquinas wrote:The name of the game is "Particracy", not "Dictatorship". The game description on the main Particracy page reads "Players propose and vote on legislation, form cabinets, determine economic policy and join international treaties as they compete for votes with other political parties in their nation". How will they do those things if every vote in the legislature is interrupted by an early election? It also reads: "Will your nation be a free market paradise or a socialist utopia? Only the voters will decide." How will the voters decide if every political party apart from one are never allowed any visibility?

And yes, I acknowledge that "there are ways around the early election exploit". But remember they can take a *long* time, Zanz...


Well, perhaps, but real world dictatorships don't call themselves dictatorships, either. We have elections in Wantuni. We don't even stop other parties from forming (because you can't by the rules). We just win all the time. Call it good governance ;). I just want somebody to call me on all this crap ICly, not OOC! C-S started doing it and lost patience, but a good RP won't come out of anything when someone loses patience anyway. All I need is somebody dedicated to beating me and they will!

Aquinas wrote:I'm disappointed you are finding me "lazy or self-absorbed", but as I said, so far as I can see, denying new parties the chance to establish themselves smacks of selfish gameplay. Unless, of course, it is a roleplay thing that has been agreed to by all the players in advance. Which in this case it obviously hasn't been.


I apologize if it seemed I was calling you specifically lazy or self-absorbed, you are neither. I meant that in general no one has acknowledged my years of genocide and oppression in Wantuni aside from some silly tweets by EgeDoruk now and then and C-S' short stint here that ended when he didn't get things entirely his way. I LOVE to RP, guys. RP with me!
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Farsun » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:31 am

Zanz wrote:I meant that in general no one has acknowledged my years of genocide and oppression in Wantuni aside from some silly tweets by EgeDoruk now and then and C-S' short stint here that ended when he didn't get things entirely his way. I LOVE to RP, guys. RP with me!


Challenge accepted.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby soysauce » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:11 pm

From a neutral viewpoint I think it's a rather poor show for a Moderator no less to use this tactic as Moderators should be seen as the upholders of the rules, as opposed to the abusers of them.
Maybe this breaks no rules, but it certainly breaches the spirit of the rules - it's not possible in real life, more of a glitch than a valid tactic.

I can almost see the use of this tactic as at least slightly legitimate. But I think that rather than antagonising players on their discovery of it's usage as Zanz did, new players should be informed on why it is being used at the very least.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Aquinas » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:45 am

soysauce wrote:new players should be informed on why it is being used at the very least.


When confronted with the tactics Zanz and others have used, many players instinctively assume that they are against the game rules (or at least against the spirit of the game rules) and that the player doing it is just being obstructive. Given that we are to understand that this is not the case (or at least not always the case), it might help matters from a communications point of view if one-party dictatorship players were able to refer new players to a well-written "official" statement from the Mods, explaining the situation to them. This statement might be in the form of a sticky on the Moderation thread, or it might be incorporated into the Pax Cynica.
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Re: Wantuni Never-Ending Dictatorship

Postby Valdštejn » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:08 am

Aquinas wrote:
soysauce wrote:new players should be informed on why it is being used at the very least.


When confronted with the tactics Zanz and others have used, many players instinctively assume that they are against the game rules (or at least against the spirit of the game rules) and that the player doing it is just being obstructive. Given that we are to understand that this is not the case (or at least not always the case), it might help matters from a communications point of view if one-party dictatorship players were able to refer new players to a well-written "official" statement from the Mods, explaining the situation to them. This statement might be in the form of a sticky on the Moderation thread, or it might be incorporated into the Pax Cynica.


So far, whenever players, old ones too, have come to us complaining about this or similar ways (like nation binding), I've been very careful to explain that it doesn't break the rules, isn't an invincible tactic, but will take time to overcome. And actually, I've never seen it work against a comitted player, both as victim and as user of this tactic. But an incorporation into Pax Cynica might be a good idea, and we'll discuss that.
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