"Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Threads from before the Dec 15, 2023 migration.

"Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Aquinas » Wed Sep 09, 2015 9:46 pm

The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.
User avatar
Aquinas
 
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
Location: UK

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby utoronto » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:32 am

Aquinas wrote:The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.


Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?
Platforma Walruzyjska
User avatar
utoronto
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 4:55 am
Location: RL: Poland+France+Canada / IC: Rzeczpospolita Walruzyjska

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Aquinas » Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:22 pm

utoronto wrote:
Aquinas wrote:The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.


Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?


Good question, and perhaps I should have been clearer. We've opted for a complete ban on the use of these terms, on the grounds that if we allow them under some conditions then it may encourage players to think they are permitted under all conditions.
User avatar
Aquinas
 
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
Location: UK

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby TheNewGuy » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:02 pm

Aquinas wrote:
utoronto wrote:
Aquinas wrote:The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.


Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?


Good question, and perhaps I should have been clearer. We've opted for a complete ban on the use of these terms, on the grounds that if we allow them under some conditions then it may encourage players to think they are permitted under all conditions.


That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.

Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.
I once was full of promise. Oops.
The artist formerly known as Zanz, Troll King, Scourge of Dynastia and Confidant of IdioC
All posts are subject to the intense anal-retentive scrutiny of concerned citizens of the community

Particracy Realism Project
TheNewGuy
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Polites » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:14 am

TheNewGuy wrote:
Aquinas wrote:
utoronto wrote:Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?


Good question, and perhaps I should have been clearer. We've opted for a complete ban on the use of these terms, on the grounds that if we allow them under some conditions then it may encourage players to think they are permitted under all conditions.


That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.

Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.


Indeed; there's also a bunch of words in different languages that are commonly translated into English as "Soviet" (like Ukranian Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka), derived from the word in those languages meaning "Council". If used as a term for "workers' council", would it still be disallowed? Or for that matter, considering that "Sovet/Soviet" is the standard Russian word for "Council", would it not be allowed in Trigunia?

"Soviet" is not as specific as "Bolshevik" or "Nazi", as it refers to a wider political movement; it may have a narrower meaning than "Communist", but it is still general enough to not apply to a single specific political system or organization in RL.
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Polites » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:23 am

Oh, and before you argue that in those instances "Soviet" can be replaced with "Council", I need to point out that turning "Council" into adjectives does not work well in all languages; you may call Trigunia or Kizenia a "Council Socialist Republic" in English, but they will still use "soviet" in their respective native languages.
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Aquinas » Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:52 am

TheNewGuy wrote:That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.

Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.


The wiki article on Soviet which you linked begins with this:

Soviets (singular: soviet; Russian: сове́т, Russian pronunciation: [sɐˈvʲɛt], literally "council" in English) were political organizations and governmental bodies, primarily associated with the Russian Revolutions and the history of the Soviet Union, and which gave the name to the latter state.


Even the section of the wiki you highlighted about the use of "Soviet" outside Russia makes it fairly clear that the Russian context was the source/inspiration for that:

The term soon came to be used outside the former Russian Empire following 1917]. The Limerick Soviet was formed in Ireland in 1919.[5] A soviet republic was established in Bavaria on 7 April 1919.[1] In 1920, the Workers' Dreadnought published “A Constitution for British Soviets” in preparation for the launch of the Communist Party (British Section of the Third International).[6] Here the focus was on “household” soviets “[i]n order that mothers and those who are organisers of the family life of the community may be adequately represented.”


You are perfectly right, of course, that "Soviet" can be used outside of the Soviet Union context. The argument for preventing the use of "Soviet" in-game is that:

(i) The term is so closely connected to a specific real-life political context that it becomes intrusive in RP, which is meant to be set in an alternate reality world.

(ii) The sight of the term "Soviet" in the game (eg. in nation names, legislature names etc.) may be generally confusing, encouraging players to think real-life variables are acceptable. If we allow "Soviet", players may be more likely to think "Nazi", "Bolshevik", "Christian", "Muslim" and other such terms are okay (or should be okay).

Polites wrote:Indeed; there's also a bunch of words in different languages that are commonly translated into English as "Soviet" (like Ukranian Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka), derived from the word in those languages meaning "Council". If used as a term for "workers' council", would it still be disallowed? Or for that matter, considering that "Sovet/Soviet" is the standard Russian word for "Council", would it not be allowed in Trigunia?


There would be no problem with using "Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka", as it is the specific term "Soviet" which this ruling is focussing on. I appreciate there is an argument for allowing "Soviet" to continue to be used in Trigunia, since Trigunia has a Russian theme, but the decision was made that if we were going to ban "Soviet", it would be simpler to ban it across the board, to make things clearer and simpler. There are many other Russian terms which can be used to indicate either a council or a socialist political arrangement.
User avatar
Aquinas
 
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
Location: UK

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Polites » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:43 pm

Aquinas wrote:
TheNewGuy wrote:That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.

Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.


The wiki article on Soviet which you linked begins with this:

Soviets (singular: soviet; Russian: сове́т, Russian pronunciation: [sɐˈvʲɛt], literally "council" in English) were political organizations and governmental bodies, primarily associated with the Russian Revolutions and the history of the Soviet Union, and which gave the name to the latter state.


Even the section of the wiki you highlighted about the use of "Soviet" outside Russia makes it fairly clear that the Russian context was the source/inspiration for that


But then how is this different from "Fascism/Fascist", a term inextricably tied to the specific political context of Italy in the 20s, but which came to be used as a blanket term for most interwar far-right movements, including the Nazis? Italian Fascism influenced the early stages of the Nazi party about as much as the Russian Revolution influenced the Bavarian Soviet Republic.

Aquinas wrote:You are perfectly right, of course, that "Soviet" can be used outside of the Soviet Union context. The argument for preventing the use of "Soviet" in-game is that:

(i) The term is so closely connected to a specific real-life political context that it becomes intrusive in RP, which is meant to be set in an alternate reality world.

(ii) The sight of the term "Soviet" in the game (eg. in nation names, legislature names etc.) may be generally confusing, encouraging players to think real-life variables are acceptable. If we allow "Soviet", players may be more likely to think "Nazi", "Bolshevik", "Christian", "Muslim" and other such terms are okay (or should be okay).


Isn't the litmus test for determining which RL terms are OK and which not for PT the use of a very specific and narrowly defined reference? "Christian" is not allowed, but "Church" is, because the latter has been used outside a RL Christian context; same for "Fascist" v. "Nazi", or "Communist" v. "Bolshevik", even though IRL most regimes claiming some form of allegiance to Communism as a political ideology were aligned with the Soviet Union. In the case of "Soviet", that term was used for a variety of regimes, most actually born before the Soviet Union became a thing. They were born in the same context (the Revolutions of 1917–1923) and were under Russian influence, but they were earlier than and distinct from the USSR.

Aquinas wrote:
Polites wrote:Indeed; there's also a bunch of words in different languages that are commonly translated into English as "Soviet" (like Ukranian Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka), derived from the word in those languages meaning "Council". If used as a term for "workers' council", would it still be disallowed? Or for that matter, considering that "Sovet/Soviet" is the standard Russian word for "Council", would it not be allowed in Trigunia?


There would be no problem with using "Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka", as it is the specific term "Soviet" which this ruling is focussing on. I appreciate there is an argument for allowing "Soviet" to continue to be used in Trigunia, since Trigunia has a Russian theme, but the decision was made that if we were going to ban "Soviet", it would be simpler to ban it across the board, to make things clearer and simpler. There are many other Russian terms which can be used to indicate either a council or a socialist political arrangement.


Not in all languages though. In Romanian for instance the only standard way to translate "Council Republic" is "Republică Sovietică", since you can't really make an adjective out of the modern Romanian word for "Council" ("Consiliu"). I guess you could call it "Republică a Sfaturilor" (Republic of Councils) as the Hungarian Soviet Republic is sometimes known, but that sounds very awkward and archaic.

So why should a nation that is a Socialist regime governed by workers' councils not be able to call itself a "Soviet Republic"?
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Polites » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:16 pm

On a similar note, I need to point out culturally-specific words that are nonetheless allowed if they accurately refer to the reality on the ground. "Shogunate" is quite specific IRL, referring to the political status of Medieval Japan ruled by hereditary military leaders, but it is allowed as a nation name for Sekowo or Mikuni-Hulstria if they are actually led by a Shogun (although in 2011 Moderation did not allow me to rename Sekowo as a Shogunate). Judging by the previous nation name of Mikuni-Hulstria, that ruling is no longer valid, and for good reason I would say; a nation ruled by a Shogun should be able to call itself a Shogunate, just how a nation ruled by a Shah should be able to call itself a Shahdom, the term's associations with RL Persian culture notwithstanding. On the same principle, a nation governed by workers' soviets/councils should be able to refer to itself as a Soviet Republic.
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby utoronto » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:20 pm

Polites wrote:Not in all languages though. In Romanian for instance the only standard way to translate "Council Republic" is "Republică Sovietică", since you can't really make an adjective out of the modern Romanian word for "Council" ("Consiliu"). I guess you could call it "Republică a Sfaturilor" (Republic of Councils) as the Hungarian Soviet Republic is sometimes known, but that sounds very awkward and archaic.


Wouldn't « Republica Consiliului »/« Republica al Consiliului » or « Republica Consiliilor»/« Republica ale Consiliilor» work or would they be grammatically incorrect?
Platforma Walruzyjska
User avatar
utoronto
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 4:55 am
Location: RL: Poland+France+Canada / IC: Rzeczpospolita Walruzyjska

Next

Return to Archive

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests