"Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Threads from before the Dec 15, 2023 migration.

Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby IdioC » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:23 pm

I'm a bit wary of this.

"Bolshevik" comes from the Russian word for "Majority" and might be used in a Russian-language nation to refer to a majority sect in general (I defer in advance to any Russian speakers present on this). I also second the points on "Soviet" being a "Worker's Council" of sorts. I'm not going to debate the ban on Nazis because it was always a contentious issue to permit it; for all I know there might have been a wave of intolerant idiots in the past two years.

I admit that it would be better for RP if players invented new terms for these, but there's a risk of this being viewed as banning the concept rather than the terms. The reason behind past permissiveness was for diversity in RP: as much as using the exact same terms is a little unimaginative, if the extreme concepts are banned and we end up with a world of SocDem, Lib, NeoCon and Green parties, it'll be a backward step. Besides, it's fun to play the bad guy in RP every now and again...

Nazi systems --of the word itself-- were in one country, whereas many more became Soviet Socialist Republics or had parties that advocated becoming one. I would argue that the latter's breadth should permit at least the inclusion of "Soviet".
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Kubrick » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:39 am

Let us not forget that in some parts of the world the word Bolshevik is more offensive than the word Nazi. Often we look at these words with a Western perspective, thinking only the Nazi's were the evil bastards. But the atrocities committed by the Soviet regime in some territories greatly overshadowed whatever nasty shit the Nazi's pulled.

And with the same word logic used by the posters before me, the word Nazi (depending on who you ask) could mean Ignatius (a Bavarian hick), National-Socialist or Nazarite (something to do with Nazareth). The first one has nothing to do with the Third Reich atrocities, the second one is only an ideology like communism and the last one is based on Jewish beliefs so technically there's nothing wrong with the word Nazi! Obligatory /s tag though.

I will agree that the word Council (as in Soviet) is on the edge but we can not forget the negative connotation it carries these days.

EDIT: I looked at this post and it almost looks like I am defending the Nazi's here. I'm not, Nazi's were bad, Soviets were bad. Stalin and Hitler were two sick lunatics. I don't like either of them.
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Polites » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:11 am

utoronto wrote:
Polites wrote:Not in all languages though. In Romanian for instance the only standard way to translate "Council Republic" is "Republică Sovietică", since you can't really make an adjective out of the modern Romanian word for "Council" ("Consiliu"). I guess you could call it "Republică a Sfaturilor" (Republic of Councils) as the Hungarian Soviet Republic is sometimes known, but that sounds very awkward and archaic.


Wouldn't « Republica Consiliului »/« Republica al Consiliului » or « Republica Consiliilor»/« Republica ale Consiliilor» work or would they be grammatically incorrect?


"Republica Consiliului/Republica Consiliilor" would make grammatical sense, and they would mean "Republic of the Council(s)", but they wouldn't really work (I don't think any Romanian speaker would get what they're supposed to refer to).

Regardless whether the ban on "Soviet" is applied to its use as a political term for workers' councils-led socialist republics, banning the Russian word "sovet" for Trigunia would be absurd (like banning the words "National" and "Socialist" in German for Dundorfian-speaking nations). A bunch of Russian institutions with no connection to the USSR or Communism use the word "sovet", like the current State Council, the State Council of Imperial Russia, or even the upper house of the Russian legislative, the Federation Council.
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Aquinas » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:43 pm

There would be no objection to Trigunia's legislature being renamed to, say, "Federation Council (Сове́т Федера́ции)" or "Сове́т Федера́ции (Federation Council)". The rule focusses on the specific term "Soviet", because the connection between that term and the Soviet Union is very strong in the minds of most of the people who play Particracy. Particracy is set in an alternate reality world, not the real world, and that is what we are trying to emphasise here with this rule.
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby IdioC » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:25 pm

Aquinas wrote:The rule focusses on the specific term "Soviet", because the connection between that term and the Soviet Union is very strong in the minds of most of the people who play Particracy. Particracy is set in an alternate reality world, not the real world, and that is what we are trying to emphasise here with this rule.


Whilst a laudable aim, the instrument is rather blunt. Parodies would be reduced to indirectly worded jokes requiring explanation.
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby TheNewGuy » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:18 pm

Kubrick, while I understand your argument, it's not because Bolsheviks and Nazis were objectionable in real life that Bolshevik and Nazi are now banned in PT, it's because the Bolshevik Party and the Nazi Party were specific, real life entities that shouldn't exist in game.

There was no "Soviet" party. A "Soviet" was a citizen of the Soviet Union, yes, but it also is a direct transliteration of a Russian word which has absolutely no necessary tie to the Soviet Union at all, see here. In pre-Revolutionary Russia it meant "any government council." One was not a "Soviet." In situations outside of Russia it often implied no tie at all to the Soviet Union (e.g. in Ireland), but instead implied a government by council which was first attempted in Russia (thus the Russian word). One was not a "Soviet Irishman." It was only after the Revolution and specifically pertaining to Russia that it became a specific noun. One could now "be" a "Soviet," similar to how one "was" a "Nazi".

This is really where my objection begins. A "Bolshevik" is a specific noun, a member of a political party that only existed in Russia. A "Nazi" is the same, only in Germany. A "Soviet," however, is a concept of governance that should not be equated with the first two and should not be banned in PT except where it specifically is implying a link to the RL Soviet Union. Trigunia should be allowed to have a "Soviet" as its legislature, it should be allowed to have Soviets at the regional level, it should be allowed to govern your party by Soviet, a nation should be allowed to be a Soviet Republic, because all of these things imply a form of governance, not an allusion to a RL entity.
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby utoronto » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:09 pm

Polites wrote:
utoronto wrote:
Polites wrote:Not in all languages though. In Romanian for instance the only standard way to translate "Council Republic" is "Republică Sovietică", since you can't really make an adjective out of the modern Romanian word for "Council" ("Consiliu"). I guess you could call it "Republică a Sfaturilor" (Republic of Councils) as the Hungarian Soviet Republic is sometimes known, but that sounds very awkward and archaic.


Wouldn't « Republica Consiliului »/« Republica al Consiliului » or « Republica Consiliilor»/« Republica ale Consiliilor» work or would they be grammatically incorrect?


"Republica Consiliului/Republica Consiliilor" would make grammatical sense, and they would mean "Republic of the Council(s)", but they wouldn't really work (I don't think any Romanian speaker would get what they're supposed to refer to).


Couldn't you just add more descriptors so that it does make some sense? Like adding workers (lucrători) or proletariat to the title, i.e. "Republică Consiliului Lucrătorilor" or "Republică Consiliilor Lucrătorilor" / "Republică Consiliului Proletariatului" or "Republică Consiliilor Proletariatului"? Or would that be too cumbersome?
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Polites » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:30 am

utoronto wrote:Couldn't you just add more descriptors so that it does make some sense? Like adding workers (lucrători) or proletariat to the title, i.e. "Republică Consiliului Lucrătorilor" or "Republică Consiliilor Lucrătorilor" / "Republică Consiliului Proletariatului" or "Republică Consiliilor Proletariatului"? Or would that be too cumbersome?


I guess "Republica Muncitorească a Sfaturilor" (Workers'/Labour Council Republic) or "Republica Proletară a Sfaturilor" (Proletarian Council Republic) could work.

TheNewGuy wrote:A "Bolshevik" is a specific noun, a member of a political party that only existed in Russia. A "Nazi" is the same, only in Germany. A "Soviet," however, is a concept of governance that should not be equated with the first two and should not be banned in PT except where it specifically is implying a link to the RL Soviet Union. Trigunia should be allowed to have a "Soviet" as its legislature, it should be allowed to have Soviets at the regional level, it should be allowed to govern your party by Soviet, a nation should be allowed to be a Soviet Republic, because all of these things imply a form of governance, not an allusion to a RL entity.


I agree, and would again ask my question on "Shogunate". Considering that term is more narrow and specific than "Soviet", as it has never been used outside the Japanese feudal context, unlike "Soviet" with its much wider use, will "Shogun" and "Shogunate" also be banned, as they once were? I will point out that in response to this name change request, Moderation sent me the following message:

Polites,

As per Article 8.2.3 of Pax Cynica, real life terms are not valid for nation names. Moderation has agreed that the term Shogunate is deemed a real life term that only applies in reference to the Japanese feudal system.

I ask that you create a new nation name change bill with a more original, creative name.

Regards,

Particracy Moderation


Seeing that MH/H&GS was recently named a "Shogunate", does the old ruling still apply? And if it does not, why ban one term for having a too specific RL reference while allowing one whose reference is even more specific?
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby Aquinas » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:42 am

As already explained, the ruling on "Bolshevik"', "Nazi" and "Soviet" is very specific and applies to those terms only. There is no need for a general panic that other terms which have hitherto been allowed are suddenly going to be prohibited.
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Re: "Bolshevik"/"Nazi"/"Soviet" disallowed

Postby JuliaAJA » Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:54 pm

I stand against the banning of Soviet and Nazi on the grounds previously mentioned. I cannot see a reasonable argument for their banning other than excessive caution which I would argue is not reasonable.
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