Aquinas wrote:The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.
utoronto wrote:Aquinas wrote:The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.
Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?
Aquinas wrote:utoronto wrote:Aquinas wrote:The terms "Bolshevik", "Nazi" and "Soviet are now explicitly disallowed, on the grounds they have real-life political/historical associations which are too specific.
Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?
Good question, and perhaps I should have been clearer. We've opted for a complete ban on the use of these terms, on the grounds that if we allow them under some conditions then it may encourage players to think they are permitted under all conditions.
TheNewGuy wrote:Aquinas wrote:utoronto wrote:Is this ban specifically with regards to party and country names? Or can "Сове́т" (Soviet/Sovet) be used in the context of a council?
Good question, and perhaps I should have been clearer. We've opted for a complete ban on the use of these terms, on the grounds that if we allow them under some conditions then it may encourage players to think they are permitted under all conditions.
That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.
Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.
TheNewGuy wrote:That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.
Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.
Soviets (singular: soviet; Russian: сове́т, Russian pronunciation: [sɐˈvʲɛt], literally "council" in English) were political organizations and governmental bodies, primarily associated with the Russian Revolutions and the history of the Soviet Union, and which gave the name to the latter state.
The term soon came to be used outside the former Russian Empire following 1917]. The Limerick Soviet was formed in Ireland in 1919.[5] A soviet republic was established in Bavaria on 7 April 1919.[1] In 1920, the Workers' Dreadnought published “A Constitution for British Soviets” in preparation for the launch of the Communist Party (British Section of the Third International).[6] Here the focus was on “household” soviets “[i]n order that mothers and those who are organisers of the family life of the community may be adequately represented.”
Polites wrote:Indeed; there's also a bunch of words in different languages that are commonly translated into English as "Soviet" (like Ukranian Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka), derived from the word in those languages meaning "Council". If used as a term for "workers' council", would it still be disallowed? Or for that matter, considering that "Sovet/Soviet" is the standard Russian word for "Council", would it not be allowed in Trigunia?
Aquinas wrote:TheNewGuy wrote:That's sort of silly in the case of the word "soviet." Bolsheviks were a specific historical faction of a specific historical party, and the word was never really used outside that context, and thus I get it. Nazis were a specific historical name for a specific historical party and was never really used outside that context, except by factions seeking to link themselves with the Nazis, and so I get it.
Soviet, however, is a government concept that has broad application outside the specific "Soviet Union" instance that this ban seems to imply. I direct you here to find sourced instances of soviets organized in Ireland, Bavaria, Britain, etc. The three words do not equate.
The wiki article on Soviet which you linked begins with this:Soviets (singular: soviet; Russian: сове́т, Russian pronunciation: [sɐˈvʲɛt], literally "council" in English) were political organizations and governmental bodies, primarily associated with the Russian Revolutions and the history of the Soviet Union, and which gave the name to the latter state.
Even the section of the wiki you highlighted about the use of "Soviet" outside Russia makes it fairly clear that the Russian context was the source/inspiration for that
Aquinas wrote:You are perfectly right, of course, that "Soviet" can be used outside of the Soviet Union context. The argument for preventing the use of "Soviet" in-game is that:
(i) The term is so closely connected to a specific real-life political context that it becomes intrusive in RP, which is meant to be set in an alternate reality world.
(ii) The sight of the term "Soviet" in the game (eg. in nation names, legislature names etc.) may be generally confusing, encouraging players to think real-life variables are acceptable. If we allow "Soviet", players may be more likely to think "Nazi", "Bolshevik", "Christian", "Muslim" and other such terms are okay (or should be okay).
Aquinas wrote:Polites wrote:Indeed; there's also a bunch of words in different languages that are commonly translated into English as "Soviet" (like Ukranian Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka), derived from the word in those languages meaning "Council". If used as a term for "workers' council", would it still be disallowed? Or for that matter, considering that "Sovet/Soviet" is the standard Russian word for "Council", would it not be allowed in Trigunia?
There would be no problem with using "Radyans'kiy/Radyans'ka", as it is the specific term "Soviet" which this ruling is focussing on. I appreciate there is an argument for allowing "Soviet" to continue to be used in Trigunia, since Trigunia has a Russian theme, but the decision was made that if we were going to ban "Soviet", it would be simpler to ban it across the board, to make things clearer and simpler. There are many other Russian terms which can be used to indicate either a council or a socialist political arrangement.
Polites wrote:Not in all languages though. In Romanian for instance the only standard way to translate "Council Republic" is "Republică Sovietică", since you can't really make an adjective out of the modern Romanian word for "Council" ("Consiliu"). I guess you could call it "Republică a Sfaturilor" (Republic of Councils) as the Hungarian Soviet Republic is sometimes known, but that sounds very awkward and archaic.
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