Requests: RP Laws [RPC]

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Moderator: RP Committee

Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Kubrick » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:52 pm

Winning one election does not warrant nullifying RP done by 5+ players.
"see yah i think kubs is right" ~Zanz

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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Occam » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:55 pm

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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Polites » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:00 pm

House Spencer wrote:
Kubrick wrote:A thing to note is that in his last news post Spencer has basically declared all Jelbanian RP null and void by magically removing all foreign troops and annexing all federal states.


Sorry but the time for you to be playing toy soldiers with Jelbannia is over. We have had an election and my party won. I don't give permission for other nations to have Jelbania chopped up in bits. You did not have my consent for this. In any case it's blatantly against game mechanics.

If you want to control Jelbania come and play here we need another player I feel.


It doesn't really work like that though. Game Rules don't allow RP laws to override game mechanics, and as such the other player in Jelbania cannot claim that your party didn't win the elections, for instance, but they do allow RP laws to cover aspects of the game not covered by the game system, such as aspects related to the military. The game was never really completed, which is why RP laws were introduced many years ago, and are enforced by Moderation. Since there's no way to use the game system to simulate foreign occupation or new independent or highly autonomous regions, Moderation-enforced RP laws became a necessity.

Your RP in Jelbania violates a number of game rules so unfortunately Moderation has had to rule it invalid. More specifically, you are not allowed to unilaterally affect the situation of Vanukean and Deltarian troops in Jelbania without the consent of players in Vanuku and Deltaria, as covered by Rule 6.b. You are not allowed to "peacefully escort" foreign troops from Jelbania given that Jelbania is far weaker militarily than either of those two nations, so such an action would be unrealistic, and as such prohibited by Rule 6.c. You are not allowed to withdraw consent from an RP that a) happened before you joined Jelbania and b) you acknowledged in character as having occurred, as covered by Rule 6.d. And lastly you cannot contradict existing and validly implemented RP Laws, as they are enforced by Moderation, as covered by Rule 6.e.

I understand you may disagree with the Game Rules as currently applied, and you are of course free to voice your disapproval and suggest improvements or changes. But you must understand that the current incarnation of the rules is the result of a decade of trial and error in trying to balance what can be achieved by the game mechanics with the stringencies of coordinating role-play, which has become a significant if not dominant aspect of the game.

Many of the issues you have difficulty with will be addressed differently in the sequel version of the game, currently in development. Feel free to check the developer's blog relating to the new Particracy.
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby House Spencer » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:15 pm

Polites wrote:
House Spencer wrote:
Kubrick wrote:A thing to note is that in his last news post Spencer has basically declared all Jelbanian RP null and void by magically removing all foreign troops and annexing all federal states.


Sorry but the time for you to be playing toy soldiers with Jelbannia is over. We have had an election and my party won. I don't give permission for other nations to have Jelbania chopped up in bits. You did not have my consent for this. In any case it's blatantly against game mechanics.

If you want to control Jelbania come and play here we need another player I feel.


It doesn't really work like that though. Game Rules don't allow RP laws to override game mechanics, and as such the other player in Jelbania cannot claim that your party didn't win the elections, for instance, but they do allow RP laws to cover aspects of the game not covered by the game system, such as aspects related to the military. The game was never really completed, which is why RP laws were introduced many years ago, and are enforced by Moderation. Since there's no way to use the game system to simulate foreign occupation or new independent or highly autonomous regions, Moderation-enforced RP laws became a necessity.

Your RP in Jelbania violates a number of game rules so unfortunately Moderation has had to rule it invalid. More specifically, you are not allowed to unilaterally affect the situation of Vanukean and Deltarian troops in Jelbania without the consent of players in Vanuku and Deltaria, as covered by Rule 6.b. You are not allowed to "peacefully escort" foreign troops from Jelbania given that Jelbania is far weaker militarily than either of those two nations, so such an action would be unrealistic, and as such prohibited by Rule 6.c. You are not allowed to withdraw consent from an RP that a) happened before you joined Jelbania and b) you acknowledged in character as having occurred, as covered by Rule 6.d. And lastly you cannot contradict existing and validly implemented RP Laws, as they are enforced by Moderation, as covered by Rule 6.e.

I understand you may disagree with the Game Rules as currently applied, and you are of course free to voice your disapproval and suggest improvements or changes. But you must understand that the current incarnation of the rules is the result of a decade of trial and error in trying to balance what can be achieved by the game mechanics with the stringencies of coordinating role-play, which has become a significant if not dominant aspect of the game.

Many of the issues you have difficulty with will be addressed differently in the sequel version of the game, currently in development. Feel free to check the developer's blog relating to the new Particracy.


This is ridiculous. Both the RP and the RP law blatantly violate game mechanics and are against the rules. I refuse to recognise this imaginary control of Jelbania by other powers. My party won elections for a national parliament which sets laws for the entire nation. That is how the game works.

I have already won an election with over two thirds majority. What more am I supposed to do to return Jelbania to being a normal playable nation? As well why didn't moderation tell me all this when I first joined instead of using rascally tactics to deny me seats for nearly 2 weeks?
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Occam » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:25 pm

@House Spencer
1. There is one thing and one thing only that you can bring forward in support of your claim. That is rule 6a (my emphasis):
Game Rules wrote:a. Role Play is a large part of Particracy, however it is not compulsory and as a general rule the game mechanics always “come first.”

But! The rule doesn't say "game mechanics always 'come first'", it says "as a general rule the game mechanics always 'come first.'" And "as a general rule" means "in most cases", "usually", "typically." And the present case, clearly, does not fall into that category. (Admittedly, the "always" is a bit unfortunate.)

2. You joined a nation that is culturally protected and has been for weeks at the center of major role-play involving a lot of players. There is really no way to nullify that because you don't like it. Had the role-play started after you joined your consent would have been necessary. But the role-play was ongoing, and as Polites pointed out, you acknowledged it by participating. Therefore your consent is not necessary.

3. As far as I can tell, you are, technically, still violating the cultural protocol, since you have still not given a role-play justification for using English names. (Just asserting it outside of role-play is definitely not sufficient.) This has been explained to you in detail - personally I have given you some pointers, how you could handle this. I get the distinct impression, that you just don't care about the rules and conventions of the game.

I am strongly opposed to Moderation meddling in game-play, so I can hardly believe I am writing this, but by now you really reached a point where, were I a Moderator I would seriously consider a party-deactivation. Moderation has really been very patient here.

@cm7779, Kubrick, et. al
It would be helpful for all affected, if you could post a summary of the current situation and links to important information in Jelbania's debate section.

Regards.
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Sisyphus » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:50 pm

Given that the RP by House Spencer to escort Vanukean troops out of northern Jelbania has been proclaimed invalid by the Mods it is time to move on.

I will post that the two divisions of Vanukean troops remain there and will not be leaving until we have assurances from House Spencer that our citizens and interests will not be put in jeopardy. That is the position the game community widely accepts as being the correct current situation.

I then will encourage Horace Spencer to sit down at the negotiating table with a Vanukean delegation to look at ways the current agreement can be modified or amended to meet the requirements of his current government outlook while also meeting our requirements. If HS refuses to negotiate we will stay in northern Jelbania; if he tries to remove us by force we will very probably retaliate. That's the RP I propose going forward.

Why this RP? I think given the time and effort - economically, diplomatically and militarily - Vanuku has invested in Jelbania over the last 30-odd game years we would not just walk away without an advantageous deal and certainly it would be utterly unreasonable to expect that. Further, any attempt to push us out would prove futile militarily because of the reasons regarding the two nation's relative military rankings. HS would have to either find a way to grind us down over time or bring in some big gun allies to beef up his military.

I hope @House Spencer will respect the decision made by the mods and join in the very reasonable RP proposition I have outlined above.
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby House Spencer » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:59 am

The foreigners living in Jelbania are treated well and will be allowed to keep there assets. We have changed the law so they can have multiple citizenship

The troops have been peacefully and respectfully escorted out of the country. Jelbania is an independent country with a national parliament making laws for all of the country. This is non-negotiable and I consent to nothing that does not recognise this. I do not want other countries controlling four fifths of my country specially when none if you can tell me a THING what the laws are or who the leaders names there are. Nobody told me about all this when I joined. The other party didn't even tell me what his party name meant for the 1st week.

I do not want to leave I worked hard here, forced to wait 2 weeks before being allowed a single 1 seat and made 50 bills

Please let me play my game in peace
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Polites » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:47 pm

House Spencer wrote:The foreigners living in Jelbania are treated well and will be allowed to keep there assets. We have changed the law so they can have multiple citizenship

The troops have been peacefully and respectfully escorted out of the country. Jelbania is an independent country with a national parliament making laws for all of the country. This is non-negotiable and I consent to nothing that does not recognise this. I do not want other countries controlling four fifths of my country specially when none if you can tell me a THING what the laws are or who the leaders names there are. Nobody told me about all this when I joined. The other party didn't even tell me what his party name meant for the 1st week.

I do not want to leave I worked hard here, forced to wait 2 weeks before being allowed a single 1 seat and made 50 bills

Please let me play my game in peace


Normally Moderation does not intervene in RP, except as players also playing the game, but sometimes we need to step in when there's trouble. The specific RP about peacefully escorting foreign troops out of the country has been declared invalid because it went against the game rules, but other than that, I think it shouldn't be too hard to reach a solution with the other players involved where they, for instance, withdraw their troops in exchange for some concessions. I understand you want to be left alone to play in Jelbania as you wish, and the other people involved want their previous story-lines protected and RP to proceed in a realistic manner. I'm sure it should not be too hard to reach a compromise here.
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby Sisyphus » Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:07 pm

So @house spencer, it has been made clear for the second time that the escorting soldiers rp is invalid, which means Vanukean troops remain in place in northern Jelbania.

If you want them to leave reach out to our government through rp, strike a deal or offer concessions and we can move on. Until that time or until we are forced out by a credible military or diplomatic rp they remain in place and we will continue to influence policy in the two states that make up the Jelbic Khaganate. I cannot speak for Deltarian players but i know they will want any resolution to be based on credible rp too.

PS @house spencer I have pm'd you in game IC offering to meet to reach a deal so this can be resolved.
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Re: RP Law Query Thread

Postby House Spencer » Mon Aug 06, 2018 2:05 pm

"OOC: This is a constitutional Act passed with a two thirds majority. The same majority is necessary to amend it."

http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=577692

rules wrote:ii.To overturn or abolish an RP law you must pass a bill with a simple majority which explicitly mentions which law you are scrapping and provides a link to the original law. You should then post a link to the bill on the RP Law Dismissal Thread.
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