Requests: General [A]

[Amazeroth]

On an unrelated note, I don't know where to put this: http://classic.particracy.net/viewparty ... tyid=20281

Te party has no user id, and shows up on the nation overview with no name.

The party has been inactivated - these kind of parties sometimes come up, probably due to a bug in the creation mechanics, and they don't show up on the inactives radar, so they're not dealt with unless somebody points them out to us, or we come across them by coincidence.

Sorry Fred to skip ahead of you. Mods; answer his request first.

Anyhoo: http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=391866

The RP is not "official" in any capacity whether it be on the forums or on the Wiki until approved by the moderation. I and my comrades have not done anything RP wise in Darnussia, because nothing has been officially voted on. The bills announcing my occupation are being voted on right now, but they're not considered "done" until the vote has ended. Luthori does reserve the right to "propaganda" which may or may not be true of real world events. I reserve the right to make propaganda claims from my party, which may or may not be true of real events. The issue is what is factually real, and what is not.

Honestly, I have been really disappointed with Darnussian players, but whatever. Is there a rich RP history in Darnussia? The Wiki hasn't been updated since the 3300s, and the debate bills currently in play in the 3500s don't add to much. Maybe I am missing something. I have some questions for the mods.

Under Rildanor it requires 50% plus one of the legislature, the HOS, the HOG, the defense and foreign minister to go to war, but now it seems it needs 100% of the legislature, and even parties with 0 seats.

This was answered as well in a pm, here's the gist of it:

You can declare war without 100% consent, just as Rildanor says. But you can't determine the outcome of the war unilaterally, and you can't force any other country into a war just by abiding Rildanor standards. Coups themselves need 100% consent, but not, and this is a general rule, from parties without any seats.

Treaties require 2/3rds to pass, but it takes 100% of all parties to agree to enforce them.

If they are about RP, yes. The game mechanic part, that is the part where you have to have certain laws to ratify the treaty, and you can't change them after the treaty's ratified, is valid in any case.

Constitutional Changes and Name Changes require 2/3rds, but what does it mean when maybe 20% of the legislature opposes it?

Nothing. They are game mechanic stuff, and as such, nothing happens if only 20% oppose it. As for name changes, they are still at the discretion of moderation, but will usually be enacted if they aren't blatantly stupid or ridiculous ("Great State of Fuck"), against the RL rules ("USA"), or against the Cultural Protocols ("Neues Reich von Groß-Luthori").

Seeing as how I am a Darnussian party can I say no to RP forever and ever?

Only initially. Once you've accepted an RP, you can only say no with grounded cause. Which, seeing as you came there accepting the RP of a civil war between republicans and monarchists, you can't say no to that RP later. Likewise, if the Darnussian parties had at one point accepted your RP as a Luthori force bent on ending that civil war and making Darnussia a colony, they couldn't say no now without good reason.

I'll follow whatever rules you got going here, but it just seems to me that if I need the consent of every party its going to send the game to a halt. If I have 10 parties in my nation, 9 out of 10 agree, but one party with 1% says no then it stops everything. If that is how the game is played, so be it, but it seems like a waste.

I could see some kind of system where you need a majority of players (not votes) in order to get an RP started. But currently, and that's taken over from Pax Cynica, complete consensus (not counting parties with no votes) is the system.

If I change Darnussia's legislature to Luthori's Parliament, the flag to Luthori, the name to Luthori Protectorate of Darnussia, and the HOS and HOG to Luthori's Chancellor and Prime Minister: If I do all these things through the game mechanics how can my RP be refused? It's in the game itself.

Because it's just the game's mechanics. The other parties are free to handle that how they like - they can't pretend that these things haven't changed, but they still don't have to accept any influence of Luthori. You'd be successful in forcing these titles on them, but Darnussia still stays an independent entity - game mechanic wise - and thus they don't have to go with any RP that comes with it. Without consensus, it will essentially ruin the country, and there won't be RP for as long as it stays that way, and the other parties or you don't come around.

My main point is how can they deny that Luthori has conquered them RP wise if every constitutional aspect via game mechanics is Luthori colonial Parliament, colonial flag, colonial HOS etc. It makes no sense. The players in Darnussia want to simply deny every RP proposal I have as if it never happened, Republican parties refused to cooperate with me to topple the Monarchy when it was their goal for decades, and then I royally kicked their ass in the latest election with 54% out of four parties. Still, they want to just obstruct everything, present no alternative, and come rushing to the mods instead of coming up with a consensus solution. The honorable thing would be to acknowledge you got beat, and work with the majority party to come up with a good story. It's all about good stories, not about who looks bad or good. They say its unreasonable Luthori could conquer Darnussia so easily. Well, Luthori is the super power of Particracy. It is indeed that easy, it was easy, it will continue to be easy. It has just been really disappointing in Darnussia.

You've made a bad impression on them the way you took over Luthori, and an even worse by coming there and dictating how the RP would go from now. I'm not sure why you thought they'd react any other way.

It should be noted that the player is yet again stepping over his boundries by defining RP things for other nations (this time, Luthori).

"As a matter of clarification, the treaty between Luthori and Darnussia is only valid with the former Holy Luthori Empire. It was never valid with the Realms of Luthori. "

That alone is not against the rules, it's just one player or party giving its opinion. It's wrong, of course, because treaties are valid for as long as they are ratified, and if Pax Cynica were still in effect it would have made going to war a violation of the rules, but now it's just opinion.

[Siggon Kristov]

Coups themselves need 100% consent

Why?

[MichaelReilly]

So, RP wise, everything is invalid as it does not have consent of us.

As soon as the cunt fucks off back to where he came from, we can change everything back and have a perfect right to act like it didn't happen within our history.

If that's not the case, then I therefore present the case that he's godmodding; no way would a country walk in without opposition into another.

And if that's not the case, I'm leaving, and everyone involved in this sorry state of affairs can go fuck themselves, because what is happening is quite blatantly breaking several rules, and the mods are quite frankly proving to be useless in enforcing the games rules.

[MichaelReilly]

My main point is how can they deny that Luthori has conquered them RP wise if every constitutional aspect via game mechanics is Luthori colonial Parliament, colonial flag, colonial HOS etc. It makes no sense. The players in Darnussia want to simply deny every RP proposal I have as if it never happened, Republican parties refused to cooperate with me to topple the Monarchy when it was their goal for decades, and then I royally kicked their ass in the latest election with 54% out of four parties. Still, they want to just obstruct everything, present no alternative, and come rushing to the mods instead of coming up with a consensus solution. The honorable thing would be to acknowledge you got beat, and work with the majority party to come up with a good story. It's all about good stories, not about who looks bad or good. They say its unreasonable Luthori could conquer Darnussia so easily. Well, Luthori is the super power of Particracy. It is indeed that easy, it was easy, it will continue to be easy. It has just been really disappointing in Darnussia.

Furthermore, I don't see how it is so hard to get round your head that in order for you to RP a conflict with a definitive end such as the one you just have, you have got to have the consent of the other players. Of course you can't just claim a country for another without the permission of the players and expect it to go ahead.

How many fucking times: YOU ARE BREAKING THE RULES OF INTERNATIONAL ROLE PLAY.

[MichaelReilly]

Apologies for the blue language, but I can't help being angry when I'm furious.

[Amazeroth]

Coups themselves need 100% consent

Why?

Because all internal RP needs to be consensual.

So, RP wise, everything is invalid as it does not have consent of us.

As soon as the cunt fucks off back to where he came from, we can change everything back and have a perfect right to act like it didn't happen within our history.

If that's not the case, then I therefore present the case that he's godmodding; no way would a country walk in without opposition into another.

And if that's not the case, I'm leaving, and everyone involved in this sorry state of affairs can go fuck themselves, because what is happening is quite blatantly breaking several rules, and the mods are quite frankly proving to be useless in enforcing the games rules.

First - don't use "cunt" or any other direct insult again, or you'll get an actual warning. I know you've already apologised, so there are no consequences yet, but seeing that all I said so far is pretty much what you wanted to hear, I don't see any reason for insults, and I'm not really sure how the mods are proving useless in enforcing the game's rules.

Second - yes, as soon as you have the required votes again, you can change everything back and ignore what has happened.

Third - you're still operating under the assumption that the Pax still exists. There aren't several rules being broken, there is one being broken.



So, now, the verdict in this case:

The following is illegal, and is thus to be ignored:

- any acts of war between Luthori and Darnussia
- any coup or attempts at that in Darnussia
- any disruption of the ongoing civil-war RP in Darnussia
- the RP that Darnussia has been taken over by Luthori, is a part of Luthori, or a colony of Luthori

Anything that counteracts this verdict, which means anything done by any party, not only in Darnussia but in every country of Terra, that treats the above as something that has happened or is still happening in-game, will be a violation, and incur at least warnings. Anything done against this ruling in Darnussia or Luthori will be answered with a ban from that nation.

The Luthori Republican Occupation Force is still free to name itself that, still free to follow orders issued by any Luthori party, but that's it. They can't pretend that the country is attacked or influenced by Luthori, all they can do is claim that they themselves are influenced by Luthori parties. Since they also acknowledged that there is a civil war RP in Darnussia going on, they can either find their place in that RP, or at least do nothing to disturb it.

As a direct consequence of this, the part of the Rildanor Accords considering the legality of war declarations will be modified, in order to make sure that it is not understood as a legal way of starting wars that somehow wouldn't require consent from the other nation and its parties.


And, as a general rule, there's this - this game has both competitive and cooperational parts. The competitive part is what lies in most of the game mechanics - the accumulation of votes, and getting bills passed. RP is the cooperational part. There is, as of yet, no way to force your RP on anyone else, and, at least generally speaking, this won't change. Even if RP should become less consensual, there would be mechanisms or rules to hinder one player going to a country and forcing the parties there to submit to his RP ideas.
This is not to say that RP can't also be competitive, but it has to be competitive in a way previously agreed on (like boxers agreeing on the rules of a fair fight beforehand, for example).

[MichaelReilly]

So, to sum up, the 'Luthori Occupation Force' is perfectly entitled to mechanically change Darnussia into a Luthori colony, but none of it is actually valid RP wise; or all attempts, even within the game mechanics, to make Darnussia a Luthori colony is illegal?

Can you clear up which one of the two it is; both of which I'll accept, however begrudgingly.

[Amazeroth]

So, to sum up, the 'Luthori Occupation Force' is perfectly entitled to mechanically change Darnussia into a Luthori colony, but none of it is actually valid RP wise; or all attempts, even within the game mechanics, to make Darnussia a Luthori colony is illegal?

Can you clear up which one of the two it is; both of which I'll accept, however begrudgingly.

The first one. To clarify - you can't change any country into a colony, by game mechanics, because there are no mechanics for it. Changing Darnusssia mechanically so it looks like a Luthori colony would have as much consequence as if the largest party of Ireland (presuming their constitution would let them) changed Ireland's name to "British Colonial Ireland", or something. They'd be regarded lunatics, but Ireland wouldn't become a colony of Britain.

However, they would have to do so while somehow staying in context of the ongoing civil war RP. If they don't, they'll also be banned from the nation.

[Siggon Kristov]

Coups themselves need 100% consent

Why?

Because all internal RP needs to be consensual.

If I group up with a coalition of players and we have over 50% of the seats (meaning we likely have most of the paramilitaries as well, not necessarily that they'll get involved), we can declare that we have taken control of the government (and game mechanics will back us) and we can say that we are a military government and that we'll take a militant approach to opposition. If someone forms opposition, then they are recognising that the junta exists.

Like a cabinet proposal in-game, a coup doesn't need the consent of all persons. A coup, like a cabinet proposal, transfers power from one set of hands to another. If I take control of the government from you (through game mechanics), you can't stop me. I don't see where it is illegal to also declare that the cabinet is full of military officials loyal to my party (as long as I'm not stealing someone else's characters).

[Amazeroth]

Because all internal RP needs to be consensual.

If I group up with a coalition of players and we have over 50% of the seats (meaning we likely have most of the paramilitaries as well, not necessarily that they'll get involved), we can declare that we have taken control of the government (and game mechanics will back us) and we can say that we are a military government and that we'll take a militant approach to opposition. If someone forms opposition, then they are recognising that the junta exists.

Like a cabinet proposal in-game, a coup doesn't need the consent of all persons. A coup, like a cabinet proposal, transfers power from one set of hands to another. If I take control of the government from you (through game mechanics), you can't stop me. I don't see where it is illegal to also declare that the cabinet is full of military officials loyal to my party (as long as I'm not stealing someone else's characters).

It isn't illegal to declare that the cabinet is full of military officials, or that you have taken control of government. What is illegal is to say that you've done so by using military means, if the other party or parties don't consent to that.

What you can't do, though, is to create a situation in which the mere exaction of game mechanics would constitute approval of a given RP. Meaning that you can't go and say that just by forming opposition (as in forming a party not in line with your party's ideology or political goals) the other player has consented to your RP.