House Spencer wrote:Reddy wrote:Occam wrote:One of the major problems was a lack of documentation and communication. Some ways to tackle this:
Um except this is not very true. I've been looking at this in detail. There were several RP posts and discussions on the forum, Discord and other RP bills. I've only come to remember this now -
the most important RP bills were well-documented Someone
decided to have them cleared in order to benefit their narrative. Note this player had been in the country for about 5 IG years at the time of this bill clearance giving him ample time to study the contents of that bill and the many RP posts on the forum. It was strange but ultimately his right to demand the clearance of this bill but downright misleading to claim that he was not aware of any major aspects of the RP. In whatever country I play in, I always have an " RP laws and institutions bill" open to inform any newcomers of the state of the country.
Regardless following all this, I've gladly learnt my lesson. My attempt at pushing RP boundaries ended with all this trouble. It's best to keep it safe and vanilla.
As for your proposals I think they might be too rigid. RP is and should remain a largely informal thing as it is in practice governed by a few simple rules. This kind of dispute which is based partially on misrepresentation is very rare in any case. I think the rules already provided adequately for documentation, they could be clearer and less demanding eg I don't see why an RP law has to be "clearly labelled as one". It's not exactly rocket science; identifying an RP law.
TBH I assumed that was fluff because it was old and done by a party that wasn't here anymore. LOADS of fluffy old bills get left behind in this game which I would generally ignore TBH and most other people would too.
You can say I should have researched more and okay but in my defence this game has changed like COMPLETELY since I last played, y'know?
As well even if Jelbania had been occupied I thought this was fixed (even presuming it was legal) by the Re-Unification of Jelbania bill
http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=576058. BTW THAT bill was never called "RP Law" and never referenced in debate bills, so I now know it was in fact ILLEGAL but anyway
As I said before when I voted that bill I admit I did not see the last sentence of it.
When I asked for Reddys old bill to be cleared out I did not "demand" or have "agenda" that is a misrepresentative. When I told the Mod the info in that bill was out of date he AGREED
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4363&start=3010#p137229I maintain I was not proparly told what was being done in Jelbania for a long time & even THEN they couldnt at all justify the BLATANT fucking with game mechanics either thru either the rules or spirit of the game & fairplay.
If it HAD been PROPARLY EXPLANED to me at the beginning of course I would have thought what they were doing was bad but of course I would never have wasted my time staying in Jelbania, I'd have gone somewhere better.
But by the time I saw Jelbania was complecated I was unhappy but still didnt want to leave as I'd been there a long while already and done LOTS of works making lots of bills. C7779 was shutting me out of seats for 2 weeks so why should my patience be for nothing? I waited all that damned time and I felt earned my right to be a party in Jelbania
Reddy & c7779 no disrespect but I believe when I was the winner in Jelbania and the only party my wish should come first. You want to control Jelbania thats fine by me but actually COME to Jelbania and BE THERE and win control honestly, y'know?
I am owed a serious apology for what was done but there has been nothing.
Due credit to Reddy and Spencer for the extra information and their different perspectives.
Whilst this is obviously interesting and relevant, it does not fundamentally change my reading of what happened. This is a story of an unfamiliar player inadvertently wandering into a complex situation which was not, in the end, really fair to him.
It remains problematic that there was no direct communication with Spencer for at least his first week or two weeks in Jelbania. Reddy's OOC reference bill did not, just by itself, amount to sufficient communication, given the unusual situation prevailing in Jelbania. Unfamiliar players often do not automatically perceive that these reference bills are "official", particularly when they involve players no longer present in the nation.
The fact that Polites agreed to Spencer's request to clear out the OOC reference bill probably further confirmed his impression it was outdated, as well as obviously removing one of the key technical requirements for any RP laws referenced within that bill to be valid.
In fairness, I feel some amongst us should accept a degree of responsibility for Spencer's travails. This game has three Moderators, including one who was actually present with Spencer in Jelbania at the time. This game also has thirteen RP committee members, including two who were specifically responsible for Majatra, the continent where Spencer was playing and this rather advanced international RP was going on. Should somebody have had a proper conversation with Spencer when he very first joined Jelbania? Was it not entirely unforeseeable that there might be a problem if he suddenly won power in Jelbania, having been under-informed and seat-blocked by a player-Moderator for two frustrating weeks?
This unhappy combination of the poor communication, the undeniable muddles over the rules and their enforcement, and the frustrating seat-blocking by a player-Moderator, surely amounts to a reasonable case for offering Spencer an official apology.
None of this is to say the eventual nation ban was unjustified. I do not know the exact details of that and so it is hard to judge, although as it happens, I trust the Moderators to have acted in good faith.
However, unless we recognise that some things were basically not right here, and that there were aspects to Spencer's experience in Jelbania which were not fair or desirable, then I honestly find it difficult to see how we will be able to move on from this in a positive and constructive way.
Reddy wrote:Regardless following all this, I've gladly learnt my lesson. My attempt at pushing RP boundaries ended with all this trouble. It's best to keep it safe and vanilla.
FWIW, given the nature of what Jelbania is like, I am almost inclined to suggest that ideally it might be preferable if it could be removed as a playable game mechanic nation, and be controlled instead in the same fashion as the Third World countries, which have a single specified player at a time controlling them. I firmly believe some of the recent RP in Jelbania is much more suited to the non-playable nations than playable ones, where unpredictable elections can suddenly transfer effective control from one player or group to another.