Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

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Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby House Spencer » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:34 pm

Mods did not explain to me why I was banned, just a brief message making 0% sense. I tried to discuss with them privately but they refused to answer me.

The hilarious thing is there was no need. I'd already capitulated to them and became their puppet in Jelbania. Ask Sisyphis. I accepted what the sitution was and was working with him. Then they ban me.

They have given no apology not for anything.

I feel disrespected at keep being called a new player. I told the Mods already I'm not a new player I played this game a few years ago. It was a normal game then, nothing like this. There is nothing wrong with me I am just a normal player who plays the game normally. Not genius, not shit either just normal, average. I am not the problem and am not pleased being disrespected like I am. I find you disrespecfull chatting idly about bundling me into some crappy "new players" special reservation nation.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby cm9777 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:50 pm

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Last edited by cm9777 on Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby House Spencer » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:05 am

cm9777 wrote:
House Spencer wrote:Mods did not explain to me why I was banned, just a brief message making 0% sense. I tried to discuss with them privately but they refused to answer me.

The hilarious thing is there was no need. I'd already capitulated to them and became their puppet in Jelbania. Ask Sisyphis. I accepted what the sitution was and was working with him. Then they ban me.

They have given no apology not for anything.

I feel disrespected at keep being called a new player. I told the Mods already I'm not a new player I played this game a few years ago. It was a normal game then, nothing like this. There is nothing wrong with me I am just a normal player who plays the game normally. Not genius, not shit either just normal, average. I am not the problem and am not pleased being disrespected like I am. I find you disrespecfull chatting idly about bundling me into some crappy "new players" special reservation nation.


Your nation ban was indeed explained to you in private and the reasons for the decision explained. It was not due to the rp issue as that had been sorted. I did not know you were not a new player so apologies for that . Regardless we did answer your queries and we continue to stand by our decision. Being called a new player is not deregatory in any sense, we were all there once. Personally I started playing a bit over a year ago. I suggest if you have any more queries that you message us.


It was not explained & my queries were not answered. Mods refused to answer me.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby cm9777 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:34 am

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Last edited by cm9777 on Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby Aquinas » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:19 am

Again, I am not going to get into why this nation ban was given or whether it was justified etc., but there are still some aspects to this episode which I feel are legitimate for discussion, and there are a few points I would like to raise.

Turning to cm9997's post on the RP Law Query Thread:

cm9997 wrote:Aquinas. Yes and Yes. I think more communication would have been helpful and it’s something to take into account for next time.


For the reasons I outlined here, I do feel Spencer did not get an entirely fair ride in Jelbania, and you appear here to acknowledge this. Would you be prepared to offer him an apology for a degree of inconsiderateness on your behalf towards him during his time in Jelbania? I personally feel this needs to be heard, and would help to clear the air a lot.

I also happen to think Spencer could apologise for certain things, but you are the Moderator after all, so if you do feel an apology on your part is in order, then perhaps you should go first.

cm9997 wrote:However, without referencing every forum thread related to House Spencer and Jelbania, I do also believe there was a sufficient amount of assistance and explanation available.


I did see those discussions, and what I generally saw was Moderators and a few others disputing with him over what the rules allowed. Unfortunately, the rules concerned were of limited assistance, because as Moderation has now graciously acknowledged, they are "confusing and not fit for purpose".

Given this, it is difficult to be too surprised that he found the "assistance and explanation" unhelpful, or even that he resented it. When you guys were discussing with Spencer, what you were saying to him probably began to sound less like "What we are saying is right because of what is clearly explained in the rules" and more like "We are right because we have been around longer than you and we know better than you". He quoted you personally as saying to him "you stepped in as a new player acting as if you knew the game better than many experienced players who are more familiar with both the game rules and the rp situation in Jelbania". Did you actually say that to him? However good your intentions, that kind of language is bound to come off as dismissive and condescending, focusing as it does not on what he did or what arguments he made, but on the experience "status" you perceive him as having in the community.

To use a soccer ("football" to us Brits!) analogy, if a player disputes with the referee in the middle of a game, and he disputes for long enough and causes delay for long enough, then he will probably get the red card. The lesson being that in the middle of the game, you respect the referee's verdict - however just you feel your cause for complaint is. Perhaps what happened here was something like this, I don't know. I'm not trying to crucify Moderation over this, and I certainly appreciate they were under pressure, with an important and well-developed RP going on at the time. However, some issues have emerged from this which rather alarm me, although I am relieved we are beginning to see signs Moderation recognises the problems.

cm9997 wrote:Spencer, I’m happy to discuss this with you any time but please do so in a civil way. The manner in which queries have been expressed has not been conductive in a respectful environment.


Whilst I don't disagree with that, again, I think you need to recognise that your actions and inactions contributed towards his frustration and that the issue has not been just with his attitude towards you, but also yours towards him.

*

A closing remark: I propose a new convention (not a new rule) of No-Seat-Blocking-Without-Communication, or NSBWC. Of course, it is always a good idea to communicate with players, but this is especially important if you are employing tactics which deny seats to opposing players for significant periods of time. With regards to what happened in Jelbania, the seat-blocking was arguably controversial, but the combination of the seat-blocking and the poor communication is what, at least from my perspective, made the whole thing really problematic.

Perhaps Moderators and RP committee members would be willing to agree, in future, to personally follow a No-Seat-Blocking-Without-Communication convention? I'm not necessarily expecting an immediate answer to that, of course, but I do hope the Moderators and RP committee members will at least consider holding an internal discussion on this.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby cm9777 » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:03 am

I will take into consideration the points raised here. Thanks for the contribution. It’s obviously important for Moderation to stay in touch with the community. Regarding that proposal, I think we can definitely consider a discussion on that.

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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby Zanz » Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:38 pm

Sticking my nose where it isn't surely necessary here, but viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5348&p=59829#p59880 had some positive outcomes back when I was still TNG and was playing with controversial tactics in Wantuni - could be something to help the mods create a template of some sort, at least when they're playing dictatorship style rather than standard-fare democratic.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby Reddy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:04 pm

Zanz wrote:Sticking my nose where it isn't surely necessary here, but viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5348&p=59829#p59880 had some positive outcomes back when I was still TNG and was playing with controversial tactics in Wantuni - could be something to help the mods create a template of some sort, at least when they're playing dictatorship style rather than standard-fare democratic.


I think it could help too if more hardcoded laws and legal options allowing heads of state and government to do typically dictatorial things were added. Like the one with the head of state or government appointing military officers. RP laws are a good institution but they always create conflict.

As Mod, I went all out in adding new laws and options, often ignoring some old precedents which restricted the implementation of new constitutional laws. I think we could add new hardcoded laws on things like appointment of judges, the division of power between spheres of government and perhaps a clearer law on the command of the army.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby Auditorii » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:35 pm

Reddy wrote:
Zanz wrote:Sticking my nose where it isn't surely necessary here, but viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5348&p=59829#p59880 had some positive outcomes back when I was still TNG and was playing with controversial tactics in Wantuni - could be something to help the mods create a template of some sort, at least when they're playing dictatorship style rather than standard-fare democratic.


I think it could help too if more hardcoded laws and legal options allowing heads of state and government to do typically dictatorial things were added. Like the one with the head of state or government appointing military officers. RP laws are a good institution but they always create conflict.

As Mod, I went all out in adding new laws and options, often ignoring some old precedents which restricted the implementation of new constitutional laws. I think we could add new hardcoded laws on things like appointment of judges, the division of power between spheres of government and perhaps a clearer law on the command of the army.


I firmly believe this would be a welcomed addition. The games done development wise and a new version is coming out, I think we can be a little liberal with new laws.
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Re: Split from (Jelbania Discussion) RP Law Query Thread

Postby CCP » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:52 pm

Auditorii wrote:
Reddy wrote:
Zanz wrote:Sticking my nose where it isn't surely necessary here, but viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5348&p=59829#p59880 had some positive outcomes back when I was still TNG and was playing with controversial tactics in Wantuni - could be something to help the mods create a template of some sort, at least when they're playing dictatorship style rather than standard-fare democratic.


I think it could help too if more hardcoded laws and legal options allowing heads of state and government to do typically dictatorial things were added. Like the one with the head of state or government appointing military officers. RP laws are a good institution but they always create conflict.

As Mod, I went all out in adding new laws and options, often ignoring some old precedents which restricted the implementation of new constitutional laws. I think we could add new hardcoded laws on things like appointment of judges, the division of power between spheres of government and perhaps a clearer law on the command of the army.


I firmly believe this would be a welcomed addition. The games done development wise and a new version is coming out, I think we can be a little liberal with new laws.


+1

One of the Mods (CM if I remember right?) asked me the other day as a GRC member whether I thought appointing someone in GRC to speed up drafting and implementation of new laws would be a good idea. So the Mods may be one step ahead of us on this one.
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