Permanent Summit of the Non Aligned Movement

Organizations whose scope is global and which all national governments may theoretically participate in.

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Polites » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:27 am

Haider bin Talal al-Mutanabbi, Consul of Selucia:

Representative Li raises excellent points about the ideologically liberal origin of the current international human rights regime and about how the good-faith efforts of some nations to end human suffering may contradict several human rights as currently practiced internationally. I am however weary of adopting a strongly anti-liberal language. While my own party is deeply critical of both left- and right-wing liberalism, I understand that many governments ideologically affiliated to some form of liberalism may in fact be willing to join this Organization due to its noble goals. The manner in which various governments undertake the task of ending suffering and promoting peace may differ significantly, but a core commitment to these goals, irrespective of the practical or ideological means through which they are pursued, ought to be a membership criterion. I personally would prefer more lax membership criteria, and I would much rather trust an unarmed dictator than a nuclear-armed democracy as I see the latter as a far greater threat to human life, even though my own nation technically qualifies as such. I do understand however that, at the end of the day, neither is truly dedicated to the end of human suffering and the cause of peace.

In order to address both the concerns of my colleague and of the Kalistani government, I propose the addition of the following article to the Treaty:

Recognizing that threats to peace and human flourishing may arise not only at the international level but also domestically, prospective members must demonstrate, to the extent of their capabilities, their commitment to ending human suffering on their territory, by taking reasonable and meaningful steps to abolish genocide, extrajudicial killing, slavery and all forms of bondage, torture, unjust discrimination, and arbitrary deprivation of property within their borders.


I believe that by setting the end of human suffering as a consequentialist goal of state policies this article would be sufficiently broad to allow governments to determine their own path towards that goal while ensuring that those governments that have no such interest will have no place in our Movement. Whether the definition of slavery includes "wage slavery", as it does under most forms of Socialism and several strands of Republican thought, or exclusively refers to chattel slavery or human trafficking, will be up to the governments themselves to determine. Whether affirmative action is an "unjust" form of discrimination or not will not be determined by the Movement but will be left at the latitude of prospective members. And whether an economic system rooted in private property or in communal ownership, or indeed based on cooperative principles as practiced in Selucia, avoids the arbitrary deprivation of property is something to be decided by the member states themselves. This article also recognizes that different states have different means at their disposal, hence the provision that the policies adopted need to be both reasonable and meaningful, to the extent of the capabilities and resources available to prospective members.

I hope my colleague and the nations represented at this conference agree to the wording of the proposed amendment, and if not I am eagerly awaiting their proposed alternatives.
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Doc » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:16 pm

Felix Li, Representative of Kalistan

We will await the Sekowan response before addition to the treaty. We are in agreement with all but the very last phrase. Property is such a sticky subject: We would argue that there is difference between deprivation of personal property, like a tooth brush, or books or a car or whatever, and private property, which is designed to be exploited for the purpose of generating profit. We do not have a problem with the exploitation of one's property. We just happen to believe that the exploitation of one's property becomes problematic when employers consider jobs to be among their private property, and refuse to hire workers or pay workers a decent wage because it will cut into their margin ever so slightly, and where they insist that workers are lucky to have the opportunity to be robbed at the levers of the boss' factory.

We appreciate the illumination of the intent behind the text. But within the text specifically, it reads that we are upholding "property" as a basic human right. The only property we believe anyone has rights to are either personal property, or social, public property, that we all have rights to. When property becomes an economic concept, it because eligible for regulation, and if the use of it as an economic concept works to the detriment of the minority, we believe that its use has gone entirely too far. We believe that expropriation, by which we mean the moving of private property into public ownership, should be a tactic available to a state in the prosecution of its national and/or social interests. In Kalistan we have done this with explicit compensation in mind. But we have expropriated, and we will do so again as it serves us. We do not share Comrade al-Mutanabbi's commitment to property as a human right, which the language seems to suggest, and would like to find another way to address the issue that people should be secure in their own things, without thinking of property as a basic human right.

Is there a way to resolve this issue that would satisfy us all?
Primary: Institutionalist Party of Kalistan (IPoK), 5146-

Inactive:
Socialist Party of Kalistan (SPoK), 2591-
Hizb Al'Sultan حزب السلطان 4543-4551
Parti des Frères Lourenne, 4109-4132
Gaduri Brethrenist Movement (MHdG), 4481-4485
User avatar
Doc
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: Kaliburg, Kalistan

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Doc » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:55 am

Felix Li, Representative of Kalistan

The Foreign Minister decided to add the Selucian Language, as we heard no further comment for a few months. I strongly lobbied for the word "personal" to be added before the word "property", but other than that, the FM made no additional amendments to the language. He wished me to thank the Selucian representative for the addition. And I am grateful.
Primary: Institutionalist Party of Kalistan (IPoK), 5146-

Inactive:
Socialist Party of Kalistan (SPoK), 2591-
Hizb Al'Sultan حزب السلطان 4543-4551
Parti des Frères Lourenne, 4109-4132
Gaduri Brethrenist Movement (MHdG), 4481-4485
User avatar
Doc
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: Kaliburg, Kalistan

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Polites » Sat Jul 21, 2018 3:44 pm

Haider bin Talal al-Mutanabbi, Consul of Selucia:

Honored Representative Li, please excuse my ideological insensitivity. It was not my intention to argue that property as such is a basic human right, but rather to avoid arbitrary and unjustified appropriation of property, such as attempts to deprive most of the population of land, or denying access to waterways to ethnic minorities, or nationalizing only corporations associated with political opponents. In other words, what we are concerned about is unlawful and illegitimate appropriation. The examples you provide cannot be considered unlawful or arbitrary. Perhaps a little of my Republican reflexes came through my wording. As a Republican I believe property should be as widespread as possible and that, as far as practically possible, everyone should have access to property at least sufficient to meet one's basic needs, but I also believe that property exists only insofar as it is recognized by others and society as a whole, either through custom or formal legislation. Expropriation, if conducted legally and as freely determined under popular sovereignty, is not against my own ideological views. Regardless, I once again apologize for unwillingly allowing my personal political ideology color the language of the proposed amendment, and I find the current formulation to be most acceptable. I hope the representative of Sekowo and my colleague will see it with the same eyes.
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Guga17 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:30 pm

Emiko Sasaki, International Representative of Sekowo:
Greetings, as the recently nominated International Representative of Sekowo I'll now take the place of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chika Oshiro, in the discussions about the formation of a Non-Aligned Movement and other international discussions. I would like to first apologize for the delay in giving an opinion on what has been said here for the last months. We welcome the changes introduced by our Selucian colleagues and believe it only makes the treaty better. We, however, note the absence of the violation of other countries' sovereignity in the treaty and would like to see a commitment in the treaty to not invade other countries, unless there's a valid reason for that. As such, we propose adding the following:
Recognizing the right to sovereignity and independence of other countries, members of the Non-Aligned Movement must commit to not invade other countries, unless they are invaded by them or the rights of their citizens are threatened in those countries.

Of course, in the end this is just a suggestion. If you agree with the message behind but think it could be better, give any suggestion or idea you may have. That's how we are going to make this treaty even better.

OCC Note: Sorry for just answering now, hadn't a lot of time to come here, found time just now.
Guga17
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:04 pm

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Doc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:44 pm

Felix Li, Representative of Kalistan

We read in Ephemeris Seluciana that the things are not going so well for the Non-aligned position in Selucia.

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1585&start=700#p137099

Perhaps Comrade Yukimura would care to comment on the continued potential for Selucian participation in our meetings. It would be a terrible thing if we lost Selucia.
Primary: Institutionalist Party of Kalistan (IPoK), 5146-

Inactive:
Socialist Party of Kalistan (SPoK), 2591-
Hizb Al'Sultan حزب السلطان 4543-4551
Parti des Frères Lourenne, 4109-4132
Gaduri Brethrenist Movement (MHdG), 4481-4485
User avatar
Doc
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: Kaliburg, Kalistan

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Polites » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:06 pm

Haider bin Talal al-Mutanabbi, Consul of Selucia:

Representative Li, I just received confirmation from the new Foreign MInister of Selucia Megara Kondou that she will be replacing Mr. Yukimura at this conference. There were some unfounded fears in the Selucian press that Selucia might withdraw from this meeting due to the change in government, but thankfully those were only journalistic fear-mongering. Ms. Kondou is set to address this conference soon, and she informed me that her main concern remains the possibility that membership may be open to dictatorial regimes. Hopefully the new amendment will be sufficient to allay her fears.
Polites
 
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Doc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:14 pm

Felix Li, Representative of Kalistan

Comrade al-Mutanabbi, we are happy to hear of Selucia's continued interest in this project. We thank Comrade Yukimura for his service and will standby to welcome his successor. I welcome the speech of Comrade Kondou, as well as specific suggestions about how the Treaty may be amended to address her and the Caesar's concerns.

Meanwhile, I have asked the FM to add the language to the treaty proposed by Sekowo, and I think we are nearing the end of the discussion on membership and Governing Board.

Shall we begin a discussion on goals and activities of the organization, i.e. what we are supposed to be doing, how we shall characterize this organization, its mission etc?
Primary: Institutionalist Party of Kalistan (IPoK), 5146-

Inactive:
Socialist Party of Kalistan (SPoK), 2591-
Hizb Al'Sultan حزب السلطان 4543-4551
Parti des Frères Lourenne, 4109-4132
Gaduri Brethrenist Movement (MHdG), 4481-4485
User avatar
Doc
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: Kaliburg, Kalistan

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Aethan » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:34 pm

Megara Kondou, Selucian Minister of Foreign Affairs

Thank you for receiving me here, Mr. Li. The feelings of the Selucian government towards this future organization remains the same. We have two red lines, already stablished by the former Minister Mr. Yukimura: the ban over nations that practice violation of basic human rights, and the guarantee of this not turning into an economic or military association, at least for the moment. This organization shall remain as one committed with the independency of smaller nations towards the big powers of Terra, in order to avoid any possible conflicts that may not affect them at a great scale but can indeed cause big troubles to smaller nations. Other than that, the Selucian Government is open to any other discussions
In Marea - Civis Sinistram - Selucia Former
Left Bloc - Istalia
Bright Spring - Kirlawa

PT Wiki Admin
User avatar
Aethan
 
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:59 am
Location: Somewhere in the Iberian Peninsula

Re: Non-Aligned Movement Formative Meetings

Postby Doc » Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:56 pm

Felix Li, Representative of Kalistan

Comrade Kondou, I welcome you to Kalistan.

I would like to point out that we have included the language of Comrade al-Mutanabbi, amended by only one word, in the Treaty:

"Recognizing that threats to peace and human flourishing may arise not only at the international level but also domestically, prospective members must demonstrate, to the extent of their capabilities, their commitment to ending human suffering on their territory, by taking reasonable and meaningful steps to abolish genocide, extrajudicial killing, slavery and all forms of bondage, torture, unjust discrimination, and arbitrary deprivation of personal property within their borders."


And I will add: Kalistan is just as committed as your Excellency to the prevention of the NAM from becoming a military or economic organization. I think we see eye to eye on the NAM as being a forum for association among the world's developing nations who wish to stand apart from the dominant world powers, alliances, common markets and so forth. The language included by our Sekowon comrade further emphasizes this point, I believe, in agreement to non-invasion without a legitimate casus belli of protection of citizens in a foreign nation or response to direct attack. Nothing in the Treaty points to collective security, and nothing in the Treat offers a vehicle for economic integration.

We hope this allays your Excellency's concerns, and look forward to a productive discussion about what we think the Movement SHOULD be doing. We hope your Excellency will be willing to participate in that discussion, as I see many areas of mutual agreement already.
Primary: Institutionalist Party of Kalistan (IPoK), 5146-

Inactive:
Socialist Party of Kalistan (SPoK), 2591-
Hizb Al'Sultan حزب السلطان 4543-4551
Parti des Frères Lourenne, 4109-4132
Gaduri Brethrenist Movement (MHdG), 4481-4485
User avatar
Doc
 
Posts: 1963
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:29 pm
Location: Kaliburg, Kalistan

PreviousNext

Return to Global

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests