OOC: To start technically he can call himself the Emperor of Mordusia, but it would be a Pretender claim. There are several people who claim to be King of France or even Emperor of France, but as you can see they have no power and are not even mentioned by the French government because they are not part of it. So you can not really control whether or not he/she calls himself/herself the Emperor/Empress of Mordusia. Also a reminder while in the game George is now Emperor, we are keeping this during the last months/years of Henry's rule for realism.
IC: The issue is that you argue as if the Emperor has power to begin with, but again he does not!!!! I shall say it again; the Emperor has no power in Mordusia. Your elected Viceroy who yes represents the Emperor but is not controlled by him, runs the nation as the people who elected him see fit. You are already a republic, which gives honor to the Emperor by giving him the status of "HoS". However, in reality this is nothing more than a de jure title, for the real holder of that power and the de facto HoS is the Viceroy.
So after you take that information over half of your argument falls apart. Now you ask why you can not leave a personal union. Well let’s be frank because it is overthrowing the government. Again, it does not matter how you word it the end result is the same, the current system will be overthrown and that is destroying not only that section of the "Empire" but it is also breaking all ties you share with Alduria and Luthori. Over what again? So elected officials can rule? So the people have a say in their government? The problem is they already do and you already are under the rule of elected officials.
So really the issue is at heart is you want your de facto HoS not representing the Emperor in theory. The best way to fix that and solve all these issues is to simple make the Imperial and Executive branches separate like in Alduria. Then you can not claim in any shape or form the Emperor is manipulating the outcomes, and that the people are ruled by a truly democratic leader, yet they are already ruled by one now.
This entire debate is stupid!!! For the only thing that will change is the name of the nation, maybe the flag and anthem, and the title of the Head of State.
-Lord Michel Frine
Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Imperial Viceroyalty of Alduria
Particracy Forum
Luthori-Mordusia Conference
39 posts • Page 3 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Duke Matthus » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:15 pm
Long Live the Empire!!!!
And while we are at it, "Hail the Holy Britannian Empire!!!!!"
And while we are at it, "Hail the Holy Britannian Empire!!!!!"
-
Duke Matthus - Posts: 579
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:28 pm
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Praetorian » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:49 pm
"The monarchy shall be represented by an appointed Viceroy while the monarch is not residing in the nation and shall perform any of the ceremonial duties that the monarch would perform if he was present." This is what you said is it not, My Lord? You are telling us to have a second person to do what one person already does? This is redundant, and unnecessary. If the Viceroy does what the Emperor would do, then there is no need for the emperor. Further more, the Viceroy would only be a representative. As soon as the Emperor comes to play, his job is done, the Emperor takes over. At least, that is the conclusion we draw from your statement.
You claim the monarch has no power. So if he has no power, then he is not part of the government, is this correct? If he is not part of this government, then there is no reason for us to be here, because we are a free republic, and we may run our nation as we see fit, without interference from other nations.
You say that if we become a full republic, and remove a man who has no power, that we would be destroying a part of the Empire. If we are part of an Empire, then we are not a free nation. You also say that we would be breaking ties with Luthori and Alduria. This is only true if Luthori and Alduria break all trade agreements and treaties they share with us. One does not need and emperor to be friends with another nation. Are you planning to break all trade and treaties with us? If not, then there is no reason for us not remain friends and close allies.
"So really the issue is at heart is you want your de facto HoS not representing the Emperor in theory. The best way to fix that and solve all these issues is to simple make the Imperial and Executive branches separate like in Alduria." This is another thing you said. You are trying to dictate to us what is the best course for our nation. What makes one dog better, can make another dog sicker. If you truly want what is best for Mordusia, then you will remove your troops from our borders, first and foremost, because war will not come of this, and we do not like your threats, one from an ally, and close friend. Second, you will allow us to run our nation as we see fit. Every bad thing you claim that will happen to us, will be done BY you. You say we will break ties with Luthori and Alduria. This is false. Mordusia has tried to do no less than keep all diplomatic and economical ties in place, with much more room to improve them. The only way our nation will break ties with your nation, is if YOU yourselves break them. Mordusia hold no secret ill will towards your nation, we have been friends for the longest time, and neighbors for even longer. Mordusia does not want to see our oldest and dearest friends go, which is why we are trying to make sure everything we have worked to accomplish stays in place, so our nations may continue to benefit together. The only way something negative were to happen, is if it brought upon by your nation. Is this something you mean to do?
In closing, you never answered our question. Are we rebels, or are we a sovereign nation?
Jessie Lu
Mister of Foreign Affairs
Imperial Dominion of Mordusia
You claim the monarch has no power. So if he has no power, then he is not part of the government, is this correct? If he is not part of this government, then there is no reason for us to be here, because we are a free republic, and we may run our nation as we see fit, without interference from other nations.
You say that if we become a full republic, and remove a man who has no power, that we would be destroying a part of the Empire. If we are part of an Empire, then we are not a free nation. You also say that we would be breaking ties with Luthori and Alduria. This is only true if Luthori and Alduria break all trade agreements and treaties they share with us. One does not need and emperor to be friends with another nation. Are you planning to break all trade and treaties with us? If not, then there is no reason for us not remain friends and close allies.
"So really the issue is at heart is you want your de facto HoS not representing the Emperor in theory. The best way to fix that and solve all these issues is to simple make the Imperial and Executive branches separate like in Alduria." This is another thing you said. You are trying to dictate to us what is the best course for our nation. What makes one dog better, can make another dog sicker. If you truly want what is best for Mordusia, then you will remove your troops from our borders, first and foremost, because war will not come of this, and we do not like your threats, one from an ally, and close friend. Second, you will allow us to run our nation as we see fit. Every bad thing you claim that will happen to us, will be done BY you. You say we will break ties with Luthori and Alduria. This is false. Mordusia has tried to do no less than keep all diplomatic and economical ties in place, with much more room to improve them. The only way our nation will break ties with your nation, is if YOU yourselves break them. Mordusia hold no secret ill will towards your nation, we have been friends for the longest time, and neighbors for even longer. Mordusia does not want to see our oldest and dearest friends go, which is why we are trying to make sure everything we have worked to accomplish stays in place, so our nations may continue to benefit together. The only way something negative were to happen, is if it brought upon by your nation. Is this something you mean to do?
In closing, you never answered our question. Are we rebels, or are we a sovereign nation?
Jessie Lu
Mister of Foreign Affairs
Imperial Dominion of Mordusia
- Praetorian
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:43 pm
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Xanathos » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:31 am
Seeing that the situation was quickly heating up, Duke Rannigan attempted to restore calm:
"Gentlemen, please, making use of confrontational terms will result in nothing positive.
However, we also believe it is crucial to resituate these negotiations in the right context. These talks are currently being held to prevent an invasion of Mordusia by our respective countries. As we said earlier, if we can avoid it, we will avoid war, however, this must mean that we can come to a satisfactory agreement in peace. Luthori has long been interested in purchasing the colonies of New Mordusia from your country and several times we have contacted previous Mordusia governments. Furthermore, two times, your government accepted the offer and we were about to sign the purchase documents when the transfer was made impossible for one reason or another. Then again, in peace negotiations, we cant force you to sell them to us, however, we advise you to maintain that as a possibility.
We would like to reiterate the points made by the Aldurian delegation as we believe they are extremely important. A sovereign, in the system of government now common between Luthori, Alduria and Mordusia, has only and can only have as much power as the elected representatives of the legislature are willing to give him. It so happens that in Luthori, monarchists have held a majority for hundreds of years and thus, our Emperor has a powerful voice and a prominent role in Luthorian politics. In Alduria, the Emperor is separate from the executive branch, thus once again, he only has as much power as the parties of the Diet are willing to give him. In Mordusia, the Emperor has no effective power, he is merely a figure of unity and tradition for the Mordusian people. Indeed, the Mordusian name of the current sovereign happens to be Henry Sayon-Mordus I. Why, you might ask, because he is the most direct descendant of the man who created your country and after whom it is named, Mordus. Indeed, Mordusia means none other than the land of Mordus, Mordus' land. That parenthesis on the ancestry of the Emperor aside, you say that the Emperor, if seperate of the executive wing, has no power and is therefore "unnecessary". In a sense, you might be right, although many people disagree with you. However, even though he may be useless, he does not harm anyone and he does not in any way even interfere in the democratic process. We in Luthori and in Alduria feel that he would be far from useless in that Imperial branch, a question of opinion of course. But is not maintaining someone "useless" a minor concession for peace. In that case, we would abandon our attempts to buy New Mordusia and we would gladly even protect Mordusia. The maintaining of a symbolic, useless Emperor. Finally, if the term republic is so dear to you, so be it. We then recommend you become an Imperial Republic. That is, a republic that still acknowledges the existence of a symbolic Emperor, even though for all intents and purposes, the so-called "Imperial branch" is not part of the government, indeed, all of its members, including the Emperor, would pay taxes and would maintain themselves, without the need of government spending.
There have been five wars in the past five hundred years when a head of House orange-Villayn had to be protected by the use of violence. The War of Luthori Succession, the Luthori Civil War, the Aldurian Civil War, the Yishelem Rebellion and the Mordusian Civil War. In three of those cases, our enemies fought to replace the true Emperor by a usurper ruler. In every one of those wars, the monarchist defenders of House Orange-Villayn have been victorious. Although we were victorious, many people died, most of whom did not need to. We know the CL to be much wiser than any of the parties who fought the Emperor in the past, so we are positive that we will reach a peaceful solution, however, we do hope that the following is taken into account.
We do not wish power for the Emperor in Mordusia, simply recognition, simply existence. We sincerely hope that the foreign minister ponders these words and thinks about them at great length before coming to a decision.
-His Grace, William Rannigan,
7th Duke of Utagia,
Lord Great Chamberlain,
Foreign Minister,
Holy Luthori Empire
"Gentlemen, please, making use of confrontational terms will result in nothing positive.
However, we also believe it is crucial to resituate these negotiations in the right context. These talks are currently being held to prevent an invasion of Mordusia by our respective countries. As we said earlier, if we can avoid it, we will avoid war, however, this must mean that we can come to a satisfactory agreement in peace. Luthori has long been interested in purchasing the colonies of New Mordusia from your country and several times we have contacted previous Mordusia governments. Furthermore, two times, your government accepted the offer and we were about to sign the purchase documents when the transfer was made impossible for one reason or another. Then again, in peace negotiations, we cant force you to sell them to us, however, we advise you to maintain that as a possibility.
We would like to reiterate the points made by the Aldurian delegation as we believe they are extremely important. A sovereign, in the system of government now common between Luthori, Alduria and Mordusia, has only and can only have as much power as the elected representatives of the legislature are willing to give him. It so happens that in Luthori, monarchists have held a majority for hundreds of years and thus, our Emperor has a powerful voice and a prominent role in Luthorian politics. In Alduria, the Emperor is separate from the executive branch, thus once again, he only has as much power as the parties of the Diet are willing to give him. In Mordusia, the Emperor has no effective power, he is merely a figure of unity and tradition for the Mordusian people. Indeed, the Mordusian name of the current sovereign happens to be Henry Sayon-Mordus I. Why, you might ask, because he is the most direct descendant of the man who created your country and after whom it is named, Mordus. Indeed, Mordusia means none other than the land of Mordus, Mordus' land. That parenthesis on the ancestry of the Emperor aside, you say that the Emperor, if seperate of the executive wing, has no power and is therefore "unnecessary". In a sense, you might be right, although many people disagree with you. However, even though he may be useless, he does not harm anyone and he does not in any way even interfere in the democratic process. We in Luthori and in Alduria feel that he would be far from useless in that Imperial branch, a question of opinion of course. But is not maintaining someone "useless" a minor concession for peace. In that case, we would abandon our attempts to buy New Mordusia and we would gladly even protect Mordusia. The maintaining of a symbolic, useless Emperor. Finally, if the term republic is so dear to you, so be it. We then recommend you become an Imperial Republic. That is, a republic that still acknowledges the existence of a symbolic Emperor, even though for all intents and purposes, the so-called "Imperial branch" is not part of the government, indeed, all of its members, including the Emperor, would pay taxes and would maintain themselves, without the need of government spending.
There have been five wars in the past five hundred years when a head of House orange-Villayn had to be protected by the use of violence. The War of Luthori Succession, the Luthori Civil War, the Aldurian Civil War, the Yishelem Rebellion and the Mordusian Civil War. In three of those cases, our enemies fought to replace the true Emperor by a usurper ruler. In every one of those wars, the monarchist defenders of House Orange-Villayn have been victorious. Although we were victorious, many people died, most of whom did not need to. We know the CL to be much wiser than any of the parties who fought the Emperor in the past, so we are positive that we will reach a peaceful solution, however, we do hope that the following is taken into account.
We do not wish power for the Emperor in Mordusia, simply recognition, simply existence. We sincerely hope that the foreign minister ponders these words and thinks about them at great length before coming to a decision.
-His Grace, William Rannigan,
7th Duke of Utagia,
Lord Great Chamberlain,
Foreign Minister,
Holy Luthori Empire
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan
- Xanathos
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:28 am
- Location: Holy Luthori Empire
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Duke Matthus » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:59 pm
My point exactly. Very well put your Grace, and may I add to the point that the Emperor already pays taxes and is in every way a citizen of Mordusia. Alduria is also an Imperial Republic, which the Villayn line of our current house comes from the Aldurian Republic Empire. We know the struggle you are going through and we are trying to prevent the mistakes that our ancestors made in our nations.
Mordusia says it wants to remain allies that it wants to be on our side still, so then listen to those that know what we are talking about on this issue. Are you Rebels technically for you are trying to completely overthrow the government, but that is just a term, a definition. Would you rather not be the historic reforms that reformed Mordusia into a new enlightened nation in the "Empire" and led its people onto a new age while still keeping peace.
His Excellency is not a violent man, and quite frankly this is not helping with his health, for he cares about his fellow citizens, those he has sworn to protect and serve as their Emperor.
I urge you to at least if not taking the Luthori proposal that you try the Aldurian proposal. What do you have to lose? If it works then you will haves success, and if it does not then we can come up with another plan. However, you will not know until you try.
-Lord Michel Frine
Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Imperial Viceroyalty of Alduria
OCC: Not to mention the fact that I was hopping Mordusia would become a member states of the Holy Terran Empire in 3000, if IU can get it finished and approved in time.
Mordusia says it wants to remain allies that it wants to be on our side still, so then listen to those that know what we are talking about on this issue. Are you Rebels technically for you are trying to completely overthrow the government, but that is just a term, a definition. Would you rather not be the historic reforms that reformed Mordusia into a new enlightened nation in the "Empire" and led its people onto a new age while still keeping peace.
His Excellency is not a violent man, and quite frankly this is not helping with his health, for he cares about his fellow citizens, those he has sworn to protect and serve as their Emperor.
I urge you to at least if not taking the Luthori proposal that you try the Aldurian proposal. What do you have to lose? If it works then you will haves success, and if it does not then we can come up with another plan. However, you will not know until you try.
-Lord Michel Frine
Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Imperial Viceroyalty of Alduria
OCC: Not to mention the fact that I was hopping Mordusia would become a member states of the Holy Terran Empire in 3000, if IU can get it finished and approved in time.
Long Live the Empire!!!!
And while we are at it, "Hail the Holy Britannian Empire!!!!!"
And while we are at it, "Hail the Holy Britannian Empire!!!!!"
-
Duke Matthus - Posts: 579
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:28 pm
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Praetorian » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:20 pm
Before I respond to your respective proposals, I would like to remind Duke Rannigan that I am a lady, not a gentleman. But your point was not lost on me.
Back to the matter at hand, I would like to point out that neither delegation chose to fully acknowledge my question of whether we were rebels or a sovereign nation. While Lord Frine made it clear that we were rebels, he attempted to also say that "rebel" is just a common name used to describe those who want to change the current government. While "rebels" do wish to change the current government, when it is the government under question who wishes to change the government, they are not rebels, they are reforming the government. Rebels rebel, go against the establishment, when the establishment does not wish to change. But in this case the establishment, still assuming that we are a sovereign nation, is the one who wants to initiate the change. After all, we, the Imperial diet are part of the government, are we not. So if we were to allow the Emperor to maintain his title, but separate him from the government, he would no longer be in the government, so then there would be nothing stopping the government from fully removing him of Emperor status in Mordusia. Do you follow? So if we set the Emperor aside in his imperial branch, he is no longer in the government, thus we are a full republic, free of the crown, nothing binding the governments of Mordusia to those of Luthori and Alduria, thus basically doing the same thing that we are trying to do now. And once the crown is no longer in the government, the government, may say that there is no emperor. What your nations are proposing could ultimately delay what it is you are trying to stop.
Addressing the issue of the five previous wars in the past 500 years to protect the Monarch, the only one that involved Mordusia, was the Modusian Civil war, which was between two different monarchs. The only country involved was Mordusia. The people only had a choice between one monarch or the other. With this newest change, the people have a different choice to a monarch. They can choose to have a republic, which they will no doubt prefer. With no disrespect to our Aldurian neighbors, but the "mistakes" your ancestors made, were in your nation. The people of Mordusia and Alduria, while neighbors and similar, are two different nations of people. What your country rejects, does not mean our country will follow suit. Also, following the Mordusian Civil war, the Luthorian Loyalist League rose to power, and that is how we got to where we are today, because monarchists brought our country into a state of moral depression, and now the people want something to rejoice over, and we intend to bring it to them. And we will bring it to them, if your nations, stay out of our nation's business. That was not meant to sound rude, but your nations refrained from entering our nations civil war, when war had broken out in our nation to preserve the Emperor, but now that the Emperor will be peacefully removed, you threaten us with war and destruction. Hopefully you see the backwardness of this situation.
Lord Frine, you say that we should choose from either the Luthori or Aldurian plans, and if it does not work, we can come up with a new one. Why can we not try the Mordusian plan, and if it does not work, come up with a new one?
Duke Rannigan, you say that you do not wish power for the Emperor, only existence and recognition. The Caesarion League will Guarantee recognition of Emperor William Sayon-Mordus in Mordusia, and we will guarantee that he be allowed to exist in Mordusia. Every time he comes to our nation, he will be announced by our Head of State, and allowed to go anywhere he wants, not only as a guest of our nation, but a citizen as well. He will retain full citizenship, and be allowed to vote in Mordusian election. He will be allowed to reside here as long as he wants, with no restrictions. The people of Mordusia do not hate the emperor, they just want a republic. The Emperor's birthday, regardless of who it may be, will always be a national holiday in Mordusia.
As far as the annexation of New Mordusia, right now, and into the foreseeable future, they will not be for sale, as far as the Caesarion League is concerned.
Upon closing, please answer the question of whether we are a sovereign nation, or if we are a puppet government of one, or both of your nations.
Back to the matter at hand, I would like to point out that neither delegation chose to fully acknowledge my question of whether we were rebels or a sovereign nation. While Lord Frine made it clear that we were rebels, he attempted to also say that "rebel" is just a common name used to describe those who want to change the current government. While "rebels" do wish to change the current government, when it is the government under question who wishes to change the government, they are not rebels, they are reforming the government. Rebels rebel, go against the establishment, when the establishment does not wish to change. But in this case the establishment, still assuming that we are a sovereign nation, is the one who wants to initiate the change. After all, we, the Imperial diet are part of the government, are we not. So if we were to allow the Emperor to maintain his title, but separate him from the government, he would no longer be in the government, so then there would be nothing stopping the government from fully removing him of Emperor status in Mordusia. Do you follow? So if we set the Emperor aside in his imperial branch, he is no longer in the government, thus we are a full republic, free of the crown, nothing binding the governments of Mordusia to those of Luthori and Alduria, thus basically doing the same thing that we are trying to do now. And once the crown is no longer in the government, the government, may say that there is no emperor. What your nations are proposing could ultimately delay what it is you are trying to stop.
Addressing the issue of the five previous wars in the past 500 years to protect the Monarch, the only one that involved Mordusia, was the Modusian Civil war, which was between two different monarchs. The only country involved was Mordusia. The people only had a choice between one monarch or the other. With this newest change, the people have a different choice to a monarch. They can choose to have a republic, which they will no doubt prefer. With no disrespect to our Aldurian neighbors, but the "mistakes" your ancestors made, were in your nation. The people of Mordusia and Alduria, while neighbors and similar, are two different nations of people. What your country rejects, does not mean our country will follow suit. Also, following the Mordusian Civil war, the Luthorian Loyalist League rose to power, and that is how we got to where we are today, because monarchists brought our country into a state of moral depression, and now the people want something to rejoice over, and we intend to bring it to them. And we will bring it to them, if your nations, stay out of our nation's business. That was not meant to sound rude, but your nations refrained from entering our nations civil war, when war had broken out in our nation to preserve the Emperor, but now that the Emperor will be peacefully removed, you threaten us with war and destruction. Hopefully you see the backwardness of this situation.
Lord Frine, you say that we should choose from either the Luthori or Aldurian plans, and if it does not work, we can come up with a new one. Why can we not try the Mordusian plan, and if it does not work, come up with a new one?
Duke Rannigan, you say that you do not wish power for the Emperor, only existence and recognition. The Caesarion League will Guarantee recognition of Emperor William Sayon-Mordus in Mordusia, and we will guarantee that he be allowed to exist in Mordusia. Every time he comes to our nation, he will be announced by our Head of State, and allowed to go anywhere he wants, not only as a guest of our nation, but a citizen as well. He will retain full citizenship, and be allowed to vote in Mordusian election. He will be allowed to reside here as long as he wants, with no restrictions. The people of Mordusia do not hate the emperor, they just want a republic. The Emperor's birthday, regardless of who it may be, will always be a national holiday in Mordusia.
As far as the annexation of New Mordusia, right now, and into the foreseeable future, they will not be for sale, as far as the Caesarion League is concerned.
Upon closing, please answer the question of whether we are a sovereign nation, or if we are a puppet government of one, or both of your nations.
- Praetorian
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:43 pm
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Xanathos » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:26 am
We beg the foreign minister's pardon, in our haste to respond, we forgot to include her in our initial statement.
The current Mordusian government can only be considered rebellious in the sense that it is going against the Imperial establishment and were it to unilaterally depose the Emperor without consulting with Luthori and Alduria, neither of our countries would recognize the new short lived government as legitimate. The Imperial Dominion of Mordusia is and always has been a sovereign nation. However, were this Imperial Dominion to become a Republic, Luthori and Alduria, in order to protect their sovereign ruler, would be obliged to interfere in the affairs of that sovereign nation because they also concern our two countries, since we share a head of state. However, discussions on whether or not the current Mordusian government is rebellious and whether or not Mordusia is currently a sovereign state or not are irrelevant to the current discussion. Our point about the monarchist wars is to show that neither Luthori nor Alduria will hesitate to use force if that is our last resort, although we do not believe this is the case here and at present.
However, from the statements of the foreign minister, we feel a compromise draft can now be made. The foreign minister must understand that we are willing to make concessions, such as allow Mordusia to become a republic but the Mordusians also must make concessions. Here is our draft proposal:
-The "Imperial Dominion of Mordusia" shall be renamed to either the "Imperial Republic of Mordusia" or the "Mordusian Imperial Republic".
-The head of state shall be a democratically elected official (eg: president, chancellor, etc).
-There shall be an Imperial Branch, separate from the government because not funded by it but also an integral part of Mordusia.
-The Imperial Branch shall fund itself and shall receive no government funds.
-This Imperial Branch shall be led by the head of House Orange-Villayn and Sayon-Mordus, who shall also be the Emperor of Mordusia.
-The Emperor shall be recognized as a symbolic and traditional leader of the Mordusian people, without any prerogatives other than those explicitly cited here.
-The Emperor of Mordusia shall have the sole prerogative to grant and take back titles of nobility.
-Only those who received their titles of nobility from the Mordusian Emperor may be allowed to bear them legally.
-The Emperor may vote and must pay taxes, he may not present himself for elections to be the Head of State.
-The Emperor may accept representation from a political party and endorse it.
-Both the Holy Luthori Empire and the Vice-Royauté Impériale d'Alduria shall recognize either the "Imperial Republic of Mordusia" or the "Mordusian Imperial Republic" as a sovereign and legitimate state.
-Luthori, Alduria and Mordusia shall sign free trade, non aggression and mutual defense treaties inherent to this agreement.
-Mordusia shall agree to remain a member of the CAT for the duration of this agreement.
We will not say "this is as far as we are willing to go", for that limits diplomacy but I do not believe my superiors will agree to anything radically different to this proposal.
-His Grace, William Rannigan,
7th Duke of Utagia,
Lord Great Chamberlain,
Foreign Minister,
Holy Luthori Empire
The current Mordusian government can only be considered rebellious in the sense that it is going against the Imperial establishment and were it to unilaterally depose the Emperor without consulting with Luthori and Alduria, neither of our countries would recognize the new short lived government as legitimate. The Imperial Dominion of Mordusia is and always has been a sovereign nation. However, were this Imperial Dominion to become a Republic, Luthori and Alduria, in order to protect their sovereign ruler, would be obliged to interfere in the affairs of that sovereign nation because they also concern our two countries, since we share a head of state. However, discussions on whether or not the current Mordusian government is rebellious and whether or not Mordusia is currently a sovereign state or not are irrelevant to the current discussion. Our point about the monarchist wars is to show that neither Luthori nor Alduria will hesitate to use force if that is our last resort, although we do not believe this is the case here and at present.
However, from the statements of the foreign minister, we feel a compromise draft can now be made. The foreign minister must understand that we are willing to make concessions, such as allow Mordusia to become a republic but the Mordusians also must make concessions. Here is our draft proposal:
-The "Imperial Dominion of Mordusia" shall be renamed to either the "Imperial Republic of Mordusia" or the "Mordusian Imperial Republic".
-The head of state shall be a democratically elected official (eg: president, chancellor, etc).
-There shall be an Imperial Branch, separate from the government because not funded by it but also an integral part of Mordusia.
-The Imperial Branch shall fund itself and shall receive no government funds.
-This Imperial Branch shall be led by the head of House Orange-Villayn and Sayon-Mordus, who shall also be the Emperor of Mordusia.
-The Emperor shall be recognized as a symbolic and traditional leader of the Mordusian people, without any prerogatives other than those explicitly cited here.
-The Emperor of Mordusia shall have the sole prerogative to grant and take back titles of nobility.
-Only those who received their titles of nobility from the Mordusian Emperor may be allowed to bear them legally.
-The Emperor may vote and must pay taxes, he may not present himself for elections to be the Head of State.
-The Emperor may accept representation from a political party and endorse it.
-Both the Holy Luthori Empire and the Vice-Royauté Impériale d'Alduria shall recognize either the "Imperial Republic of Mordusia" or the "Mordusian Imperial Republic" as a sovereign and legitimate state.
-Luthori, Alduria and Mordusia shall sign free trade, non aggression and mutual defense treaties inherent to this agreement.
-Mordusia shall agree to remain a member of the CAT for the duration of this agreement.
We will not say "this is as far as we are willing to go", for that limits diplomacy but I do not believe my superiors will agree to anything radically different to this proposal.
-His Grace, William Rannigan,
7th Duke of Utagia,
Lord Great Chamberlain,
Foreign Minister,
Holy Luthori Empire
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan
- Xanathos
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:28 am
- Location: Holy Luthori Empire
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Duke Matthus » Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:39 am
OOC: Praetorian while your arguement is good, there is a failure in it that as a leader of the IML and thus a representative of monarchist I must point out. If what you are saying was true, then Japan would not have its Emperor anymore. Official the Emperor of Japan is just the Emperor of Japan, lol he is not even the HoS. Japan has a symbolic Emperor, with no power and no ties to the Government, which is a Republic. Basically the Japaneses Constitution says he is the symbol of the people and their nations past. That is it, and he does not even swear in the PM. Now he is honored still and the people still hold him as the Emperor, however the government and the "Imperial Branch of Japan" are completely seperate and yet it still exist.
Other than that, the arguement is fine. Since there is no example of that, other than possibily Alduria, I had to do this OOC. So lets continue.
-Duke Matthus
Other than that, the arguement is fine. Since there is no example of that, other than possibily Alduria, I had to do this OOC. So lets continue.
-Duke Matthus
Long Live the Empire!!!!
And while we are at it, "Hail the Holy Britannian Empire!!!!!"
And while we are at it, "Hail the Holy Britannian Empire!!!!!"
-
Duke Matthus - Posts: 579
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:28 pm
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Rumbold90 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:32 pm
OOC: The Union for Social Change and the Cesarion Leauge are both gone, so I'll have to take over negotiations.
The people of Mordusia wish to create a state of the people, and not of a monarchy. However, as we wish to maintain good relations with our neighboring nations near and far, we are willing to compromise.
Some suggestions thought out by the party elders of the United Worker's Front:
1) The Monarch's birthday would be a national holiday in Mordusia.
2) The Monarch would remain a citizen of Mordusia and would recieve the benefits of citizenship.
3) The Monarch would be able to retain control over one residence of his choice, and would recieve a pension from the Mordusian gov't.
4) The Monarch would be able to keep his titles, although "in-exile" would have to be added.
As I said the leadership of the United Worker's Front is willing to compromise. However, the people of Mordusia demand a nation of the Mordusian people, and not of a foriegn monarch.
-Erik Oppenheimer
Mordusian Minister of Foriegn Affairs
The people of Mordusia wish to create a state of the people, and not of a monarchy. However, as we wish to maintain good relations with our neighboring nations near and far, we are willing to compromise.
Some suggestions thought out by the party elders of the United Worker's Front:
1) The Monarch's birthday would be a national holiday in Mordusia.
2) The Monarch would remain a citizen of Mordusia and would recieve the benefits of citizenship.
3) The Monarch would be able to retain control over one residence of his choice, and would recieve a pension from the Mordusian gov't.
4) The Monarch would be able to keep his titles, although "in-exile" would have to be added.
As I said the leadership of the United Worker's Front is willing to compromise. However, the people of Mordusia demand a nation of the Mordusian people, and not of a foriegn monarch.
-Erik Oppenheimer
Mordusian Minister of Foriegn Affairs
United Worker's Front
Mordusia
Mordusia
-
Rumbold90 - Posts: 124
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:08 pm
- Location: Grace Brothers Department Store
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Xanathos » Sat Mar 20, 2010 7:17 pm
OOC: Right.
IC:
1) Acceptable
2) Acceptable
3) Irrelevant since the monarch has never held any government owned estates, all of his estates are his private property and not Mordusian government property. In addition, the monarch does not require a pension.
4) May we make a couple of suggestions regarding this item:
-The head of House Orange-Villayn and House Sayon-Mordus shall be known as the Emperor of Mordusia.
-The Emperor of Mordusia is not the head of state of Mordusia and is not part of the government of that country.
-The Emperor shall be recognized as a symbolic and traditional leader of the Mordusian people, without any prerogatives other than those explicitly cited here.
-The Emperor of Mordusia shall have the sole prerogative to grant and take back titles of nobility.
-Only those who received their titles of nobility from the Mordusian Emperor may be allowed to bear them legally.
-The Emperor may vote and must pay taxes, he may not present himself for elections to be the Head of State.
-The Emperor may accept representation from a political party and endorse it.
-Both the Holy Luthori Empire and the Vice-Royauté Impériale d'Alduria shall recognize the current government of Mordusia as the legal and sole governing authority of Mordusia.
-Luthori, Alduria and Mordusia shall sign free trade, non aggression and mutual defense treaties inherent to this agreement.
-Mordusia shall agree to remain a member of the CAT for the duration of this agreement.
As a last note, we would like to remind Mr Oppenheimer that the current monarch, Emperor George I of Mordusia, is a direct descendent of Mordus, the first man to become Emperor of Mordusia in the 9th century and the man after whom your country is named (indeed, Sayon-Mordus is part of the current Emperor's titulary). So he is certainly not a foreign monarch.
IC:
1) Acceptable
2) Acceptable
3) Irrelevant since the monarch has never held any government owned estates, all of his estates are his private property and not Mordusian government property. In addition, the monarch does not require a pension.
4) May we make a couple of suggestions regarding this item:
-The head of House Orange-Villayn and House Sayon-Mordus shall be known as the Emperor of Mordusia.
-The Emperor of Mordusia is not the head of state of Mordusia and is not part of the government of that country.
-The Emperor shall be recognized as a symbolic and traditional leader of the Mordusian people, without any prerogatives other than those explicitly cited here.
-The Emperor of Mordusia shall have the sole prerogative to grant and take back titles of nobility.
-Only those who received their titles of nobility from the Mordusian Emperor may be allowed to bear them legally.
-The Emperor may vote and must pay taxes, he may not present himself for elections to be the Head of State.
-The Emperor may accept representation from a political party and endorse it.
-Both the Holy Luthori Empire and the Vice-Royauté Impériale d'Alduria shall recognize the current government of Mordusia as the legal and sole governing authority of Mordusia.
-Luthori, Alduria and Mordusia shall sign free trade, non aggression and mutual defense treaties inherent to this agreement.
-Mordusia shall agree to remain a member of the CAT for the duration of this agreement.
As a last note, we would like to remind Mr Oppenheimer that the current monarch, Emperor George I of Mordusia, is a direct descendent of Mordus, the first man to become Emperor of Mordusia in the 9th century and the man after whom your country is named (indeed, Sayon-Mordus is part of the current Emperor's titulary). So he is certainly not a foreign monarch.
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan
- Xanathos
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:28 am
- Location: Holy Luthori Empire
Re: Luthori-Mordusia Conference
by Rumbold90 » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:24 pm
"Mr. Rannigan, as our current party in power is communist, I would find it very hard for the Emperor to become the Mordusian Head of State. We wish to create a true communist nation, not a mish-mash of different political ideals all smushed together.
However, we would be willing to remain members of CAT, sign trade agreements, and allow the Emperor to keep his titles including the title as Emperor of Mordusia. However, we will not let anyone else recieve titles of nobility.
To counter some of the measures you proposed being dropped, the Mordusian government might be willing to sell it's colonies."
Emperor George may be descendent from Mordus, the founder of our nation, but he and the patricians have enslaved the workers and farmers of Mordusia. He is Mordusian by blood, but not by spirit. Allowing his fellow countrymen to live in such a society means that he has betrayed his nation."
-Erik Oppenheimer
Mordusian Minister of Foriegn Affairs
However, we would be willing to remain members of CAT, sign trade agreements, and allow the Emperor to keep his titles including the title as Emperor of Mordusia. However, we will not let anyone else recieve titles of nobility.
To counter some of the measures you proposed being dropped, the Mordusian government might be willing to sell it's colonies."
Emperor George may be descendent from Mordus, the founder of our nation, but he and the patricians have enslaved the workers and farmers of Mordusia. He is Mordusian by blood, but not by spirit. Allowing his fellow countrymen to live in such a society means that he has betrayed his nation."
-Erik Oppenheimer
Mordusian Minister of Foriegn Affairs
United Worker's Front
Mordusia
Mordusia
-
Rumbold90 - Posts: 124
- Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:08 pm
- Location: Grace Brothers Department Store
39 posts • Page 3 of 4 • 1, 2, 3, 4
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests