Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Conferences, visits and other bilateral or multilateral meetings.

Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby Leonardo222 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:56 pm

After endless wars and bloodshets and a long time of bilateral diplomatic war the Imperium Selucianum represented by it's head of state the Caesareae Maiestatis eius, Imperator omnes Seluciae, fidei defensor: Johannes von Wager with his follow and the Pntek Wrntunyfkai Jezknstat (Pontesi) are now holding negotiations about the Selucian minority in Pontesi.
The place of the negotiations is the castle of West shadar in Selucia.
In preperation for the meeting 20.000 policemen and an additonal 15.000 soldiers are odered to protect the Pontesi delegation beginning with their arrival at the miltary air base in west shadar to the west shadar castle.
The arrest warrents against leading members of the Democratic party in Pontesi are suspended and Selucia now offically recognaizes Pontesi as a state.

The Selucian government already outlined its positions:

1.) Autonomity of region where there is a great Selucian population

2.) Protection of the Selucian culture, languange, lifestyle and various opt out options for the autonomic regions
2.1 Establisihing of Selucian schools with own standards but with regional overseight
2.2 In regions/municipials where there is a huge selucian minority both languanges are allowed and used in the public service
2.3 In these regions every town, city, village every landmark and river has to have two names (Selucian and Pontesi)
2.4 In these regions/municipials also the etsbalishing of a parliament in order to express the intrest of Selucians is necessary
2.5 Those regions and municpials must have the right to spend 80% of their budget alone without interfrence
2.6 Laws which are intorduced have not to hurt any minority group
2.7 The central government of Pontesi does not have the right to force any Selucians to military or civil works

3.) Recognition of the Selucian Empire as the protection power for all Selucians

4.) Protection of Seucians from persecutions and racism+ religious freedom

5.) Selucian quota in Protectorate politics+ public service
5.1 Selucians have the right to obtain informations in their languange
5.2 In regions where there is a huge selucian minority both

6.) Allow Selucians to have deep connections with the Empire (military service)+ double citizenship

7.)The persecution of the criminal offences and a official statement of excuse to all Selucians in the Pontesi region.

8.) Dissolution and persecution of the IML (Selucia will assist)

9.)Free movement of members of the minority in the two states, as well as the right of Island Selucians to visit their family members in Pontesi

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Several roadblocks


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Castle of West Shadar
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Re: Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby Freelancer » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:28 am

Pontesian Dynastic Empire have decided to send an envoy to the meeting as it fears for the safety of it's minister following the large scale used of force in the protection of this meeting. Pontesi delegation is represented by Sagzi Seyfri, Special Envoy for Minority Negotiation, and Charles Kino, Special Envoy for Selucian Affairs. Both are appointed by the Minister of Foreign Affairs Hrne Manica.

After exchanging pleasantries, Pontesian delegate examine the Proposal before outlining it's position on each issues.

1.) Autonomity of region where there is a great Selucian population


Pontesian Dynastic Empire will not grant autonomy to any region. Every region shall be subjected to the same law and same government control.

2.) Protection of the Selucian culture, languange, lifestyle and various opt out options for the autonomic regions
2.1 Establisihing of Selucian schools with own standards but with regional overseight
2.2 In regions/municipials where there is a huge selucian minority both languanges are allowed and used in the public service
2.3 In these regions every town, city, village every landmark and river has to have two names (Selucian and Pontesi)
2.4 In these regions/municipials also the etsbalishing of a parliament in order to express the intrest of Selucians is necessary
2.5 Those regions and municpials must have the right to spend 80% of their budget alone without interfrence
2.6 Laws which are intorduced have not to hurt any minority group
2.7 The central government of Pontesi does not have the right to force any Selucians to military or civil works


Several opt our option may be granted, but greater autonomy is entirely out of the question.
- Schools may be established, but it will private and funded by private organization. The government of Pontesian Dynastic Empire will impose strict regulation over it in the same manner as other private school is organized.
- Pontesi will allow Selucian languages to be used in Public Services in a region with large population of Selucian, but it will be used as a secondary language to Pntek.
- Pntek will be the only language on all sign.
- Selucian will not be given any special interest greater than any other minority population in the parliament. All will be covered under minority term.
- All budgets in every region will be control in the same way.
- There will be no law targeting minority group from this cabinet.
- Conscription is universal, no exception.

3.) Recognition of the Selucian Empire as the protection power for all Selucians


Unacceptable, Selucian population in Pontesi must choose to recognized only one state as their homeland and protector. Those who choose Selucia will be deported to Selucia with compensation and all their possession.

4.) Protection of Seucians from persecutions and racism+ religious freedom


This will be granted, provided that the Church doesn't create dissent against Pontesian Dynastic Empire and obey the regulations and laws of the PDE.

5.) Selucian quota in Protectorate politics+ public service
5.1 Selucians have the right to obtain informations in their languange
5.2 In regions where there is a huge selucian minority both


There will be no Selucian Protectorate and no special quotas for any minorities group. Selucian will have the right to information, but it will be in Pntek.

6.) Allow Selucians to have deep connections with the Empire (military service)+ double citizenship


Selucian population may only have one citizenships, those who choose to recognize Selucian will be deported with compensation.

7.)The persecution of the criminal offences and a official statement of excuse to all Selucians in the Pontesi region.


Selucian population will be under the same laws as all other population, no exception.

8.) Dissolution and persecution of the IML (Selucia will assist)


Under no circumstances will Pontesi subjected to external influence on the matter of IML and ATR. If you are to continue this line of discussion then Pontesi will withdraw from negotiation.

9.)Free movement of members of the minority in the two states, as well as the right of Island Selucians to visit their family members in Pontesi


Pontesi will grant no special right to Selucia population. It will be allow the same right to visit our nation as any other country.

With that out of the way, we have come with several terms of our own.

- Selucia must terminated relation with any nations that doesn't recognize Pontesi sovereignty and it's status as an independent state.
- Selucia will compensate in whole for the atrocity and destruction of Pontesi's culture during the occupation.
- Selucia will formally renounced any claim over any of Pontesi land permanently.
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Re: Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby Leonardo222 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:15 pm

The Imperator grabs the microphone:

To make one thing perfectly clear: We were never,and are not a member neither of the ATR nor of the IML. For us, this is at the moment no option, future governments might see that in another way.
In relation to your terms, may I say this:
1.) Selucia will promise no claim over Pontesi land and will pass an act by parliament that future wishes in the direction of Pontesi will be not valid (constitutional ambednment) if we can reach a consensus
2.) For what shall we apologize?We want rather a apologize for the racial persecutions of Selucians in Pontesi!
3.)Selucia will not end relationships with any countries as long as we are not at war with them. We see a comprhensive and effective diplomacy as key to a peaceful future and therefore it is important to talk with everyone
I am sure, the delegates see that point too.

On 2: Selucia wants that private organizations and the church of Selucia is allowed to found such schools and universities, especially if religion is so important for Selucians. A strict controle must only focused on the Science, math area in the curriculum. Those schools must be treated as equal and the teachers are free in their acting. The langunage spoken in the school is chosen by the schoo itself.
-Selucian langunage must have the same meaning in the public life as Pntek, therefore it is vital that this languange is equal. Every Selucia must have the right to obtain informations, therfore we suggest a compromise:

Signs in municipials where there is a Selucia majority are written first in Selucian and then in Pntek where there is only a relative Selucian minority between 20 and 50% it is wirtten first in Pntek and then in Selucian. On the other hand all in the public service there will be quota according to the share of Selucians in a region or municipial with more then 20% share of Selucians.
We drop the conscription but the 80% rule with municipials and regions stands.

Cultural life must be free of descrimination.

On 5 and 6:

The must be a quta for Selucians according to the population. On national level we would accept a 15% quota for the public services and politics.

And they can obtain informations in Selucian on Municpial and regional matters and if a statement from the pubic Service aims at a spicific Selucian region or municpial or Selucian-Pontesi citizen himself this must be also in Selucian otherwise it isn't valid

We drop the double citizenship (nevertheless every Selucian theat enters Selucia has the right to obtain Selucian citizenship) but we want an identity card and a passport in two languanges if wanted by a Selucian.

On 8 and 9:

We want the persecutions of the FPA and it's dissolution and we think that passports or the apporval to travel to Selucia to visit relatives must be sbject to a gurantee by the Pontesi government.


On 3:
We suggest the following:

Selucia and Pontesi have repsonsibilities for Selucians. Pontesi because it is the state they live in and Selucia because it is their motherland and everlasting guiding star.




The two principles of the agreement must be:

1.) Every Selucian can obtain information in his languange
2.) Selucians are not subject of discrimination nor racism.
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Re: Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby Freelancer » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:09 am

OOC: If possible, please try to quote the negotiation point. As it is very confusing.
IC:

The Envoy takes a moment to gather his thought with other delegates before responding again to the proposal.

Let me remind you that your occupation, conducted under Selucia and Crusader banner directly result in our forced membership of ATR. It is in our opinion that your action is under ATR authorization and order. The first step in the negotiation is to accept the truth, Imperator. If you continue to lie through your teeth then it's pointless to continue.

1.) Selucia will promise no claim over Pontesi land and will pass an act by parliament that future wishes in the direction of Pontesi will be not valid (constitutional ambednment) if we can reach a consensus
2.) For what shall we apologize?We want rather a apologize for the racial persecutions of Selucians in Pontesi!
3.)Selucia will not end relationships with any countries as long as we are not at war with them. We see a comprhensive and effective diplomacy as key to a peaceful future and therefore it is important to talk with everyone


- For the oppression of Pntek population during the occupation of Pontesi. If you wishes, we will also apologize for the oppression of Selucian.
- We don't enter into any forms of agreement with a state that doesn't recognize our sovereignty or support any other state that believe in the same manner. We insisted that this must be adopted.

On 2: Selucia wants that private organizations and the church of Selucia is allowed to found such schools and universities, especially if religion is so important for Selucians. A strict controle must only focused on the Science, math area in the curriculum. Those schools must be treated as equal and the teachers are free in their acting. The langunage spoken in the school is chosen by the schoo itself.


The Selucian will be allow to do what they wishes, but these educational institute will be subjected to Pontesian law. Language that are spoken must be Pntek as the school is in Pontesi.

-Selucian langunage must have the same meaning in the public life as Pntek, therefore it is vital that this languange is equal. Every Selucia must have the right to obtain informations, therfore we suggest a compromise:


Unfortunately, it is in the opinion of the Pontesi government that the language that is used in less then 10% of the population will not be considered equal to the language which is use in 95% if the population. Selucian will be recognize as minority languages.

Signs in municipials where there is a Selucia majority are written first in Selucian and then in Pntek where there is only a relative Selucian minority between 20 and 50% it is wirtten first in Pntek and then in Selucian. On the other hand all in the public service there will be quota according to the share of Selucians in a region or municipial with more then 20% share of Selucians.

On 5 and 6:

The must be a quta for Selucians according to the population. On national level we would accept a 15% quota for the public services and politics.


There will be no compromise on this issue. While we regret the oppression as necessary to protect our culture, Selucian will be treated only as equal. There will be no special right granted and no special payment for signs in their language.

And they can obtain informations in Selucian on Municpial and regional matters and if a statement from the pubic Service aims at a specific Selucian region or municpial or Selucian-Pontesi citizen himself this must be also in Selucian otherwise it isn't valid

We drop the double citizenship (nevertheless every Selucian theat enters Selucia has the right to obtain Selucian citizenship) but we want an identity card and a passport in two languanges if wanted by a Selucian.


Statement will be in Pntek only, we recognize Selucian right to their language, but Pontesian speak Pntek. Pontesi document wills be in Pntek only. Selucian that obtains Selucia citizenship will be strip of their Pontesian nationality.

We want the persecutions of the FPA and it's dissolution and we think that passports or the apporval to travel to Selucia to visit relatives must be sbject to a gurantee by the Pontesi government.


As the FPA is recognize as military organization following the declaration of the Empire, there will be no prosecution. Selucian in Pontesi is allow the right to free travel subjected to the regulation and laws of the Empire.

On 3:
We suggest the following:

Selucia and Pontesi have repsonsibilities for Selucians. Pontesi because it is the state they live in and Selucia because it is their motherland and everlasting guiding star.


The concept is unacceptable, they will accept their Pontesian nationality or adopted Selucian nationality and face deportation.

The two principles of the agreement must be:

1.) Every Selucian can obtain information in his languange
2.) Selucians are not subject of discrimination nor racism.


Imperator, so far as I can tell. I think you are misunderstanding the idea of equality. What you are asking for is special treatment for Selucian, one that we can't accept nor will we ever granted to any minority or even the Pntek who came from Barmenia or Jelbania. Our goal is clear, to create an equal society. If Selucian doesn't accept our policy then it is impossible to reach an agreement.
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Re: Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby Leonardo222 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:09 pm

The Imperator speaks:

Let me remind you that your occupation, conducted under Selucia and Crusader banner directly result in our forced membership of ATR. It is in our opinion that your action is under ATR authorization and order. The first step in the negotiation is to accept the truth, Imperator. If you continue to lie through your teeth then it's pointless to continue.


We can reach a compromise on that, if the FPA is punished and Pontesi excuses itself for the criminlaiziation of Selucians we would be ready to excuse for the invasion, however we never urged or recommended the membership of Pontesi in the ATR.
There was no influence on this issue from the Selucian government on the Crusaders.


The Selucian will be allow to do what they wishes, but these educational institute will be subjected to Pontesian law. Language that are spoken must be Pntek as the school is in Pontesi.


We already backed down on so many occasions, we will not back down on the languange. In Selucian schools the preferred langunage will be Selucian and all pupils of such schools, universities or other Selucian educational institutes will be forces to make their A-Level completly in Selucians and at university level their exams at least to 3/4 in Selucian.

Unfortunately, it is in the opinion of the Pontesi government that the language that is used in less then 10% of the population will not be considered equal to the language which is use in 95% if the population. Selucian will be recognize as minority languages.


Suggestion for a compromise:

In muncipials or regions with more then 30% Selucian and Pntek are treated equal, meaning that both languanges can be used in the public service and if a municpial or region wants in the majority Selucian-Pntek signs this has to be granted+ in muncipials with more then 60% Selucian share the people can decide on 80% on their budget.
All letters to Selucians have to be in Selucian even from the national government.
Selucia is rady to bare 20% of the costs.
+ the appointment of a racial supervisor in order to protect the rights of the Selucians.

Statement will be in Pntek only, we recognize Selucian right to their language, but Pontesian speak Pntek. Pontesi document wills be in Pntek only. Selucian that obtains Selucia citizenship will be strip of their Pontesian nationality.


We suggest two versions of the passport and the identity card:

1.) One normal Pntek version
2.) A Selucian-Pntek version


Selucian in Pontesi is allow the right to free travel subjected to the regulation and laws of the Empire.


We only can accept this, if Selucians is guranteed always the right to exit Pontesi for travel purposes and if the Selucian citizens from Selucia a fast and efficient entering of Pontesi is guranteed.


The concept is unacceptable, they will accept their Pontesian nationality or adopted Selucian nationality and face deportation.


The shared responsibility comes from the routes of the Selucians and their circumstances at the moment. It is absouluty sensable to make sure, that the Selucians feel good in Pontesi with the feeling, that no of the two countries will ever let them down.

mperator, so far as I can tell. I think you are misunderstanding the idea of equality. What you are asking for is special treatment for Selucian, one that we can't accept nor will we ever granted to any minority or even the Pntek who came from Barmenia or Jelbania. Our goal is clear, to create an equal society. If Selucian doesn't accept our policy then it is impossible to reach an agreement.


I am not asking for a special treatment, I am asking for a compensation for the disadvantage Selucians have in Pontesi. To receive letters and read signs in your own languange has nothing to do with spcial treatment, but with a real, fair and qual treatment.

2.7 The central government of Pontesi does not have the right to force any Selucians to military or civil works


We backed down on the force, but we wnat that all Selucians have the right to serve in segregated units.
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Re: Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby Freelancer » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:38 am

As it had become clear that the general sentiment of this negotiation is that the Selucian continues to believe that they have the right to dictate the internal act of the Pontesian Dynastic Empire, the government of the PDE see no reason to continue this useless talk. We are leaving.
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Re: Selucian-Pontesi minority negotiations

Postby SelucianCrusader » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:30 am

We condemn this as a violation of the by-laws of the Committee for the Liberation of the Peoples of Pontesi, of which both Selucia and Barmenia are members. No matter, we still forgive the Selucian government for this mistake and hope that they have learned what lack point there is in negotiating with criminal genocidal fascists.

We would rather hold a conference on how to liberate these lands from the fantasy kingdom. One question that needs to be resolved is the adequate name of the region. Any selucian variants of the name "Pontesi", like Pontesium suggests that it's a separate entity form Selucia, which is incorrect. Perhaps "Continental Selucia" or "Majatran Selucia" would be more appropriate?
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