Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby Maxington » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:00 am

OOC: This is a private discussion held between the Government of the Holy Luthori Empire (the primary proponent of the Artanian Union) and the various political factions, collectives and personalities in disagreement of the institutions of the Artanian Union. It's aim to discuss and debate the various talking point of the various factions, collectives and personalities on their views on the Artanian Union (whether they are positive or negative).
OOC: This is to help me (Maxington) understand the minds of the persons in disagreement of the Artanian Union and to formally hear their arguments for the alliance in a manner that does not withhold sentiments or emotions in order to form a discussion on moving forward.
NOTE: That the discussion can either be in OOC or RP, for as i stress it is a forum for views and opinions to be voiced and for discussions on said points to be made.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby Phil Piratin » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:29 am

OOC: OOCly I'm in favour of the Artanian Union (AU), or something similar to it, being revived, because it is interesting for RP.

I think there are some misunderstandings amongst some players about what the AU is. Some people think it is like the real-life European Union, which it isn't. So far as I know, the AU doesn't have binding resolutions etc., and nor does it have a large bureaucracy or a parliament with any real powers. It is essentially an inter-governmental body.

Of course, RPing the AU as an EU-equivalent can be great fun, especially given Brexit etc., but it's not strictly accurate :).

In-game, I RP the Dorvish Communist Party. From an IC perspective, a lot of the Communists will be suspicious about the AU, seeing it as a club of capitalist government leaders. The party's leader is a pragmatist with an internationalist perspective, and so would be in favour of AU membership, but a large section of the party's MPs, members and voters would be against.

For the upcoming referendum in Dorvik on joining the AU, 56% of Communist voters will be in favour of joining, and 44% opposed.

EDIT: The name "Artanian Union" might be sending out a confusing message. If the organisation was ever completely relaunched, I would suggest changing the name to something like "Artanian Association of Independent States", to emphasise it is not an EU equivalent, and has no pretensions or aspirations to be anything more than a purely intergovernmental body.
Last edited by Phil Piratin on Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby kj#2 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:33 am

Clifford Douglas, Foreign Secretary of the Commonwealth of Rutania:

The Commonwealth of Rutania has operated and endured nearly two decades since leaving the Artanian Union, the AU seems to be a toothless organization. Just a few years ago Beluzia instituted slavery and there was no action from the AU, the intelligence services in Rutania believe it the instability in Beluzia directly led to the terrorist attack that affected Rutania just a few years ago. The Artanian Union did nothing, furthermore there are many good people in Rutania that find the notion of being equals at a table with the Hawu people detestable considering their inferior nature
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby Maxington » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:48 am

Devin Foreman, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Holy Luthori Empire.

To Blame the inequities of the situation in Beluzia on the Artanian Union without taking into consideration the diplomatic and political activity of its member states is irrational and baseless. One should and must recognise the fact that isolationism within nations occur which cuts said nations off from interaction with the outside world and the various organisations to which it was previously involved in during its period of internationalism and diplomatic and political activity. I am yet to see a true a point of discussion from the Rutanians. For all i see is misdirected and unexplained hatred. I am waiting for a real point of discussion not this vexatious, frivolous and lilliputian attempt to rope in irrelevant comments into a conference aimed at producing fact-driven, qualitative discussions.


OOC: @Phil Pirati, I completely agree. It seems that certain players want to replicate instances in the real world into this game without taking in consideration that the "evidence" which they are championing appears to be appearing out of thin air, because said events have never occurred within the Artanian Union. And this has been my core point, and the paramount reason for me wanting to hear everyone's side of the story, to see who is actually reinforcing their statements with events which actually happened within the constraints of role-play conducted within the Artanian Union, rather than those who seem to be extrapolating "events, occurrences and policies" from thin air.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby kj#2 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:30 am

Clifford Douglas, Foreign Secretary of the Commonwealth of Rutania:

What benefit would Rutania gain by rejoining the Artanian Union? Should the Artanian Union adopt a common currency zone or additional security measures to ensure the safety and stability of the continent then Rutania would have more interest in joining. An economic union would be preferable in my own opinion, perhaps if member states could agree upon a uniform corporate tax rate then my government could better present the prospect of rejoining the Artanian Union. I want to stress my first point once again that few self respecting Rutanians are going to sit at a table as equals with the Hawu people.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby Maxington » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:42 am

Devin Foreman, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Holy Luthori Empire.

It is clear that the Rutanians intend on being arrogant. During my initial championing of the pro-Artanian Union sentiment, i did make such a proposal, but it seems that you were so eager to move against the Artanian Union with your baseless claims, you refused to take our proposals into consideration. I'm surprised that you didn't even do your research. But i digress.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby IntruderEmerald » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:39 am

OOC: While the Artanian Union and the European Union obviously have their differences, there are still similarities. The AU was definitely a political union. It imposed resolutions, had a membership fee and forced member states into giving aid to countries under attack if they were in Artania. It is also clear the new AU, or whatever its name may turn out to be, will be a closer political union than it used to be.

Margareta Schuchard, President of Aloria

There is an attempt by the elites of this organisation to cover up their aims of a federal Artania. They are claiming there will be no transfer of sovereignty from member states, but this is simply untrue. It is clear that the big players of this failing project want more power for themselves, and I include Luthori in this. Luthori wants to create a revamped version of the Artanian Union to give themselves more power on the continent. They are not doing it to help Artanian people, and by doing this they are damaging democracy. It is clear that the aims of the Artaniafederalists is further, deeper integration. This is clear also by an attempt by Endralon to revive the Artanian Union (http://classic.particracy.net/viewtreat ... atyid=3890), where the articles of the treaty impose legislation on member states. In fact, Article 3 prohibits member states from controlling immigration to their own country. Absurd!

I am happy for there to be more cooperation and coordination between the nations of Artania, however we are simply not willing to join a political union. We would like to see all Artanian nations work closer to preserve peace in Artania and around Terra, and that is something I will work towards.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby Maxington » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 pm

OOC: In the treaty of the Artanian Union it states:
Membership in the Artanian Union is limited to those nation states of Artania while observer status may be granted to those outside the Artanian continent. Membership in the Artanian Union requires a a member to pay a membership fee yearly, which is determined by a joint Budget proposed by the Membership Committee and the Artanian Economic-Budget Committee.
Tell me since when has said Membership Committee been conceptualised and been able to sit down and outline the membership fee (if you could bring me evidence of that, i will start to take your point as a rational thought. If not, personally it seems that you just want to bring in real-life matters into the game without tying it to some form of role-play that actually happened. You seem to be creating reinforcing statements in your argument from thin air.
Apart from that, you talk about imposing resolutions, might i ask for the physical role-play event that you could bring to reinforce your point that the AU has imposed resolutions? Because i could remember clearly it never got around being able to imposed any resolution or bills onto nations because i couldn't function properly because people like you and myself didn't have any time to conduct any form of RP with the Artanian Union. Apart from this, you talk about forcing nations to give aid to countries under attack if they were in Artania. In the treaty itself it states:
Membership warrants peace between members, any attack will result in temporary suspension for all involved parties. The same holds true from an attack externally of Artanian, ever member is expected to play a part in the defence of the member state however can chose to give humanitarian or economic aide instead of military aide.
Pay attention to the wording of the article. In communication and law you learn things about how to use wording to create loop holes or make a document's contents more flexible. (1) "ever member is expected". You are expected to vote in an election, but does that mean you HAVE to vote in an election? No it doesn't. I am yet to see real role-play reinforce what you are outlining to me here today.



Devin Foreman, Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Holy Luthori Empire.

It is clear to me the President of Aloria is either (1) being misinformed or (2) missing her cerebral cortex. As previous stated, i have made my intentions for this organisation extremely clear. If you wish to label Luthori as a nation seeking influence and power, you can have your opinion. You are entitled to your baseless and irrational opinion. But i can accentuate on your issue. There is a growing anti-intellectual strain that could be the end of our informed democracy. Of course in a free society, you can and should think independently. If you want to believe that the Artanian Union is this supranational boogeyman out to steal your nation's sovereignty, i would encourage you to believe in such a manner. But if you think the Artanian Union is this supranational boogeyman out to steal your nation's sovereignty and you have influence over others (as would an Alorian President or Prime Minister), then being wrong becomes being dangerous to the stability of your own society. So continue to spoon feed your population the misinformation you have been spoon fed yourself and continue to allow your people to be misinformed and lied to.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby IntruderEmerald » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:02 pm

OOC: While RP with the Artanian Union has been limited, and as you rightly say the Membership Committee has never actually been mentioned in RP (as far as I am aware), it is still outlined in the treaty. Now it seems like you want to RP with the AU more, which is a great thing and I look forward to it, meaning the articles of the AU will actually be enforced.



Margareta Schuchard, President of Aloria

I think the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Luthori is implying I am some kind of dangerous populist. Populist, I may be, but dangerous I am not. The danger here is Luthori and the Artanian elite who have made it clear they want further integration between the Artanian countries. This will inevitably mean the transfer of sovereignty from member states to a supranational political union. In fact, it was Mr Foreman who made it clear himself he wants further integration. When he contacted the Alorian Minister of Foreign Affairs, he used the word integration. Admit it Mr Foreman, you want deeper integration between member states, and please acknowledge that this will lead to the transfer of sovereignty away from democratically-elected governments. If you do not acknowledge this, you are the danger - you are the danger to your own society and to your own people.
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Re: Artanian Conference on the State of the Artanian Union.

Postby Maxington » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:08 pm

OOC: RP within the AU has been the paramount principle i have been trying to push, but it seems that none of you want to recognise that. Although it is apart of the treaty, it is not clearly stated and as such has to be taken with a grain of salt.
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