Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby Axxell » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:59 am

Ms Bunognini

Istalia agrees on the proposal made by the Hutorian representative and we should say that in part we agree with the Malivian collegues. In part! Yes, the future government of Hulstria and Gao-Soto should have a military forces, but, at least for a period, it should be a Defensive Force with some limitations in dimension and equipements. Minister Fukuyama and all the rest of the Hulstrian and Gao-Soto delegations, we don't want punish you for what did Nimitz and its regimes, but I think that after such a war, I think it is not so illogic that the international community demands some limits.
Your democratic aims are noble and worthy to be plaud, but first of all it is clear that you cannot currently reppresent all Hulstria and second, I think that the world has all the right to monitoring for a period the development of the political situation in Hulstria. Constitution or not, we cannot be sure that suprematist sentiments will not return soon.
We have confiance in the leadership of the Septembrists as well as in the leadership of the Communists, the problem is the rest of the millions of Hulstrian.
You will have a defensive force, you will have help, but the Hulstrian people (for its apathy, for its compliance, for any other motivations) seemed to have done very few before the excalation which led to the war. So, the Hulstrian people first of all have to learn by this, and Istalia thinks that a Program of learning of the horrors committed by the regimes for the dundorfian hulstrian should be put in place as soon as possible, when mass graves and segregations facilities are still standing.

About the compensations, we didn't think to a spoliation of Hulstria, we can also leave to you some equipement, but we will not ask monetary compensations, not now. I think that Hulstria should commit itself to return in the next decades the support or part of it to the nations which will contribute to the reconstruction. We don't think to ask you punitive interest rates, we are also disponible to give you a reasonable delay given the situation of your economy, but I think that give you such a obbligations will be a further "encouragement" for the politicians as well as for the entire society to proceed on the right path.

Finally, Istalia consider the Constitution proposed by the Septembrist suitable and satisfactory. However, it is really necessary have the reference to "septembrist"? We recognize the great efforts of your movements, but such constitutions should be for all! And what if someone profess a "non septembrist" ideology? Not necessarily all the other ideologies are racists and suprematists.

Now, the People's State: we don't want risk to leave Hulstria in a situation of a possible civil war, but we cannot simply stamp out the People's State, I think that they too gained with the arms the rights that the septembrist claims. It would be really unfair to ignore them supporting only the septembrist. However, the People's State seems to have some issue with what we intend as democratic nations, and a one-party state obviously is not a democratic nation. Have you something to say Comrade X about such allegations? Can you send to Istalian Foreign Ministry something like a your basic law or your ideas to organize a future State?

Thank you
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby Martinulus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:06 am

Graf Michels

Such a move would not be necessary. The Communists did publish a Constitutional document which they published in their paper. As you can see, they reserve their upper house entirely for their party and in their first clause assert a leading role for this party. That is unacceptable by any democratic standard.

As for the similar charge you levelled at us, Frau Bunognini, I should like to say this. Septembrism as an ideology is not party-political, but rather a national ideology that emerged in our history 900 years ago and brought us the most stable democratic regime we ever had. The principles of Septembrism - the federal nation, civic democracy, non-aggressive resistance - are for the greatest part above the level of what one would normally understand as a political ideology. You must understand that my forefather, the first Graf Michels, and his fellow Septembrists in the first 15th of September Movement, were not looking to come up with an ideology. They were seeking to solve the problem of democratic collapse due to periodic ethnic tensions in our country. We have seen this very war what that can led to. His conclusion is poignant to the problem: to gain democratic stability, both peoples of Hulstria and Gao-Soto must have a permanent stake in the state and a democracy that serves all citizens of this state and is designed to do so. These are the very principles underlying the Basic Law, as they underlied the Constitution of 3416 on which it is based. The state is described as "Septembrist" because its constitutional law is built on the insights of Thomas Michels cum suis and its workings are based on the workings he designed in 3416. Especially given the history of ethnic tensions, this symbolic clause (because I recognise non-Septembrists can be as democratic) is highly important.

I should also stress that the clause does not imply a leading role for the Septembrist Movement in the new state. We have a history of participating in politics as a unified force only when that democratic order is being threatened. Parties which adhere to Septembrism are in no way privileged. Parties cannot be banned for the reason of not being Septembrist, but they can be for being anti-democratic or racist.

Furthermore, Septembrism is broad enough to embrace the entire political spectrum. Communists can be Septembrist; Hosian Democrats can be Septembrist; Liberals, Social Democrats, et cetera, can all be Septembrist. This is because it is, historically, not so much a political as a national ideology: its principal concern is with the way in which Hulstria and Gao-Soto can exist as a peaceful, democratic state at the junction of East and West, and how we can ensure it stays that way. It emerged naturally in our history because it expresses something of who the Hulstrian and Gao-Showan peoples aspire to be: one nation, united in its diversity, appreciating the heritage of their fathers and cultivating what they share, not least of it the land of two peoples, united and free. Is it so hard to understand, knowing this, that we wanted to recognise that history in our constitutional laws?

Moving on to the education programme. First of all, I would urge that it be recognised that the vast majority of Hulstrian people were not complicit in this. They should not be put on collective trial at this table for the racist actions of a few who worshipped Dundorf more than Hulstria. Hulstrians had their history taken from them and saw the proud name of their people usurped by a regime who used it to justify horrible crimes against their neighbours. Secondly, a strong part of the celebration of September Day is to recognise that freedom and democracy are not self-evident and that they must be defended; to commemorate the victims of dictatorship alongside those who made sacrifices to rid themselves of it. We think we must never forget the horrors of the regime, just like we never forgot the suffering under the 3411-3416 regime. This is true.

Returning to the Communists, they rejected competing in elections under the terms of what you described as a satisfactory constitutional law. If they persist in this, what do you propose to do? If there's one party refusing to engage in the democratic process, isn't that a destabilising factor?
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby colonelvesica » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:55 am

Ambassador Vernon Wilson

That's the beauty of your situation President Airo. Your government will function entirely like normal. Unlike Hulstria which was institutionalised for decades under the Hulstrian Party your nation merely came under military occupation and control by a rogue military junta. Members of that former rogue government will be charged with war crimes and the Coalition will remain in place for at least five years to protect your nation from outside forces that would seek to undermine your liberation or capitalize on your rebuilding process. We came into Ostland only to liberate your nation from Hulstrian military occupation and relieve strain from the Wolfsheim plague. I think it would be fair to say we have accomplished that. Life will go on, relatively speaking, as normal.

Now move to the... tougher equation.

Ms. Bunognini; humoring your thought.. what type of restrictions does your nation wish to see on Hulstria.. and what does Vanuku think of that situation?
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby Martinulus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:04 pm

Airo Abo, Minister-President of Ostland (Surname's Abo, by the way)

Excellent. We can agree to these terms then.
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby RedReaper » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:50 pm

His Excellency, Comrade Xiomar Buschmann, People's President and Marshall of the People's Army;

With regards to the comments made by Ms Bunognini towards the People's State of Hulstria and Gao-Soto, the People's State Government has every interest to return the territory under its current jurisdiction to a democratic state within the coming months. During the conflict, provisions had to be made in order to ensure that forces loyal to the People's Struggle within Hulstria and Gao-Soto remained at the fore and that such forces had vito over any decision proposed by the at the time more open legislature, the Volkstag. However, adjustments can and shall be made when we can ensure stability.

Graf Michels seeks to undermine the democratic nature of our government whilst promoting his own. Let us remind the delegation that parties with views such as our own are still at the present moment barred from taking part in the elections which the Septembrists carry out. On the other hand, multiple Septembrist parties do exist and do take part in elections within the People's State, at present in the lower house, and very soon within the upper house once constitutional adjustments have been made. The audacity and ulterior motives of the the Septembrists are in full display today I am afraid, for they seek to use their admittedly impressive diplomatic skills to undermine my Government and constitution, and to coerce the Coalition to invade. The People's State Government has known of this intention for a while, but we are surprised by how blunt and nonchalant the Septembrists are going about this aggressive aim.

The People's State Government is fully open to any suggestions by coalition forces, and we hope that a peaceful solution to the current struggle can be obtained, as it must be. Another war in Hulstria and Gao-Soto, so soon after the last, could be the last nail in the coffin for our nation. We need peace and cooperation, not further conflict and violence.
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby Corvo Attano » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:23 pm

Jools Power Minister of Foreign Affairs Malivia,

Ms Bunognini I understand that the measures my nation wishes to impose are harsh. But when you negotiate you don't start with the best of terms for everyone but the ones you want. All the terms I forwarded are negotiable.
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby Martinulus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:32 pm

Graf Michels

If I may respond diplomatically to the comments made by Herr Buschmann, as he so lauds these skills we possess, it is, not to put too fine a point on it, not true what he is suggesting. The text of the Basic Law and the record of the General Assembly, where an exchange took place between his representative and Viscount Fukuyama on the subject, will prove that we have not in fact banned his party from participating. We have even invited them to participate, but they have so far refused to take part.

Let us consider the text of the Basic Law as it stands:
Article V) the Political Process
(1) Political parties shall participate in the formation of the political will of the people. They may be freely established. Their internal organisation must conform to democratic principles. They must publicly account for their assets and for the sources and use of their funds.
(2) Parties that, by reason of their aims or the behaviour of their adherents, seek to undermine or abolish the free democratic basic order, to endanger the existence of the state or to compromise the rights of any ethnic group in the United Imperial Crownlands shall be unconstitutional. The Constitutional Court shall rule on the question of unconstitutionality.


As far as we know, the Volkspartei conforms to section (1). Likewise, section (2) does not ban any specific ideology or even non-Septembrist parties. If we take Herr Buschmann's contentions about his democratic intentions at face value, disregarding for a moment the Constitution he authored, then there is no problem with section (2) either. Even so, it would be up to the constitutional court to find it so, not the government of the United Imperial Crownlands. However, if the Volkspartei refuses to accept the Basic Law and participate in elections, then the entire point is moot - they do not choose to organise as a political party after the fashion of Article V(1). If they had then, however, in order to abolish the free democratic order, then they would certainly run afoul of section (2). But there is no reason to doubt the Volkspartei's intentions if they accept our invitation - our sincere invitation - to participate.

Let us look at the difference Herr Buschmann sketched, now we have established the absence of the Volkspartei in the current makeup of the Imperial Diet cannot be blamed on us. The 15th of September Movement leads by democratic mandate in the liberated territories and has no constitutional protection. To ensure stability, we have banded together organically, from the democratic socialists of the KDP to the Freedomites, from Herr Geraniengau's conservative NKHP to the libertarians in the LVP, to secure the transition, but after that, we see no role for the Movement as a unified political force. The way in which Herr Buschmann seeks to ensure stability is to privilege his party constitutionally and give it a veto right that is unacceptable under any democratic system of government. His party's central role is constitutionally imposed, whereas ours is the result of a broad spectrum-spanning consensus. We may differ on many matters of concrete policy, as is healthy under a democracy, but we are united in seeking to secure our democratic future. Therefore we don't have to impose our role in rebuilding the democratic order - it is theoretically possible for the citizens to choose a different path, but we are confident they will not, because we represent a consensus. It is not theoretically possible for the citizens to choose a different path - in fact, this is the intention that Herr Buschmann stated.

But I digress. Let me ask Herr Buschmann again - you are cordially invited to participate in the democratic process. Will you?
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby RedReaper » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:48 pm

His Excellency, Comrade Xiomar Buschmann, People's President and Marshall of the People's Army;

I believe you misunderstand the point being made, Michels. You state that your main complaint with the People's State is its undemocratic nature, and yet you bar certain parties from taking part in your elections. I'm interested to hear, with these facts evidently true, as to why you decry our constitution as undemocratic, and yet proclaim your constitution to be so. I think that such accusations have ulterior motives, and that there may be other reasons why the Septembrists are against the People's State.

It does however, not truly matter. We do not wish to take part in your elections, because we are not in your supposed United Imperial Crownlands. This is not a negotiation between a political party and a State, this is a negotiation between two separate geopolitical entities, both of which wish to remain separate. Peaceful coexistence is the ideal course of action, not threats and declarations. Everyone involved knows sure enough what the true situation in Hulstria and Gao-Soto is and it is about time that the so-called 'Crownlander Government' admits this.
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby Martinulus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:02 pm

Theophilus, Freiherr von Geraniengau

Geraniengau loses his composure for a minute

How dare you, Comrade? We have been recognised as the legitimate govenrment of Hulstria and Gao-Soto by vast parts of the international community. There is but one reason, meine Damen und Herren, that he makes such statements - because his goal is not to build a democracy, but a Communist state, democratic or no. The only reason he refuses to participate in the elections can be that he is afraid to put his views to the test of popular opinion, and...


Hubert, Graf Michels

Cuts Geraniengau off

Hush, Theophilus, mein Freund. There are a few inconsistencies in that argument Herr Buschmann made just now.

For one, if we are so against his People's State, why does he claim Septembrist parties participate in it? It's either one or the other. This paranoia is not conducive to a settlement in this matter. Our terms are reasonable, they are the terms of the Basic Law, which Istalia, not to be faulted for their impartiality, has deemed entirely in keeping with a democratic state. In one thing I agree with the Freiherr - there is no possible reason for Herr Buschmann to keep rejecting them, except that he does not wish to engage a test of his views at the ballot box. It's harsh to say so, but I can come to no different conclusion, alas.

Whether or not we represent a state and he a party, the facts remain the same: he has shown himself unwilling to compete on very reasonable democratic grounds. Puzzlingly so.

As for the continued misinterpretation of Article V of the Basic Law, perhaps he is intimidated by its history. But I can see no reason a Communist Party which committed to the democratic system could not exist under it. And I am sure everyone around the table sees the full and true reason we implemented it: to enable our democracy to defend itself within the law against anti-democratic and racist forces. We do not wish another Nimitz and this is a vital line of defence against such a scenario. The peoples of Hulstria and Gao-Soto have had enough of tyrants since nine centuries ago.

It is an instrument further wielded by an impartial court - all we can do is perhaps offer prosecution if we believe a party breaches Article V, but impartial judges would rule on it. There is nothing to be afraid of unless you seek to abolish the free democratic order or impose a racist system, exactly what it says in the article.

In fact, we have received word that elements in the Volkspartei wish to participate in elections at least at the local level. We are nothing but happy at this news - isn't this proof we do not plan anything nefarious of the kind Herr Buschmann seems to expect?
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Re: Kien Conference on the Future of Hulstria and Gao-Soto

Postby RedReaper » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:18 pm

His Excellency, Comrade Xiomar Buschmann, People's President and Marshall of the People's Army;

When I speak of Septembrists, Graf Michels, don't mistakenly believe I mean the likes of you. The HDV, the NKDP, the KDP and the NKEP all refrain from taking part in our elections.
However, not all parties which support Septembrism are so inclined, as I hope you agree. We have many candidates running from parties within the People's State which support Septembrist methods.

The reason we do not wish to take part in your elections is because we don't believe your constitution to be adequate for the building of a secure and prosperous society. However the reasons we do not wish to join you do not matter in a negotiation, what matters is achieving peace. I think I have it right that if the People's State continues to refrain from integrating itself into a Septembrist State, then you would force us to join you, by any means necessary, including invasion. Hence, as both sides wish peace, it is therefore imperative that rather than you starting negotiations by demanding Unconditional Surrender, that we try and come to a peaceful resolution on International Terms, not simply on your own.
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