Holy Hosian Patriarchal Churches Council

[Reddy]

OOC: I also have a strong interest in church affairs and well, a quarter of Jelbanians are TPC so Jelbania would like to participate. I agree with what Polites said, particularly about the churches uniting under the Papez and TPC.

[TheNewGuy]

I agree with what Polites said

Blanket statement on all questions religious and cultural in Particracy.

[Kubrick]

OOC:

Since the current state of Vanuku (merger of Dorvisch and Brmék/Jelbék cultures) is rather fresh and new I'd like to settle the religious state of it. The nation used to be listed as Luthoran (?) because of its Dutch culture.

With the historical influence from Dorvik I'd say that a minority is Reformed Hosian (Dorvisch Luthoran). The other part originally converted to Augustan Hosianism around 850 CE, did that Church develop into the TPC? If that is true, would the religious leader of Vanuku also be the Papez? I would find it rather useless to make another church just for Vanuku so I rather be part of the TPC. But if that is the case, would there be a religious leader that answers to the Papez to represent Vanuku? An Archbishop or Vicar or Cardinal?

[egalion]

OOC:

Since the current state of Vanuku (merger of Dorvisch and Brmék/Jelbék cultures) is rather fresh and new I'd like to settle the religious state of it. The nation used to be listed as Luthoran (?) because of its Dutch culture.

With the historical influence from Dorvik I'd say that a minority is Reformed Hosian (Dorvisch Luthoran). The other part originally converted to Augustan Hosianism around 850 CE, did that Church develop into the TPC? If that is true, would the religious leader of Vanuku also be the Papez? I would find it rather useless to make another church just for Vanuku so I rather be part of the TPC. But if that is the case, would there be a religious leader that answers to the Papez to represent Vanuku? An Archbishop or Vicar or Cardinal?

the Augustan Church is one of those Churches that was sorta created and then sorta died out without anyone particularly taking care of it and cannot be really placed anywhere. It is Patriarchal as far as it was conceived and it definitely was part of the Council of Auroria in 500. Form that point on it could have either stayed with the Arch-Patriarch in Selucia after 1819 or have merged around 2300 with the TPC. In the second case it also could have separated from the TPC together with the Theognosian Church, although I find that unlikely.


To respond to Polites

OOC:

the TPC; it is a very political and corrupt organization, that cares more about its power and money than the purity of its doctrine or the sanctity of its members. If the Papez is to gain more power by participating in the Deltarian government, even if that risks alienating the rest of the Church outside Deltaria, he will do it. Don't forget that the TPC very recently ruled Deltaria directly. The TPC is the kind of Church that calls crusades, establishes inquisitions, places the cadavers of former Popes on trial, or that has its military-monastic orders engage in drug trade and human trafficking.

I think that this might be a problem. It really sounds like the TPC is the Catholic Church before the reformation and the SPC is the Catholic Church in modern times. The thing is that Terra is in the year 3795 and I don't know if it is RP sustainable to continue with such a medieval Church. In the age of internet and infrastructure the Church would collapse immediately anywhere outside of Deltaria or where it is State Church

Personally I'd be opposed to the union of the TPC with any other Church unless it were a full merger with the TPC, including the acceptance of the supreme and absolute primacy of the Papez, the worship of the Deltarian gods, and the adoption of the Deltarian rite (basically the Russian-style Byzantine rite in Old Church Slavonic).

This really sounds unlikely because the SPC is larger and in a way older, and although the Arch-Patriarch is very open-minded, he would definitely not yield to an abusive power, and the people wouldn't like.

I think that we can discuss even further the idea of communion, maybe without a single head like autocephalous churches with different rites. Also, the Theognosian Church separated because of the abusiveness of the Papetz, so that merge is unlikely to happen.

Also, as I hold a leadership position in the TPC organization and I did a lot of work on the Church, I would like to represent the Papez, if Nick is fine with it.

[/quote]

I think this would be fine, although Nick control the czar so I don't who how that would be played out.

[Polites]

OOC:

Since the current state of Vanuku (merger of Dorvisch and Brmék/Jelbék cultures) is rather fresh and new I'd like to settle the religious state of it. The nation used to be listed as Luthoran (?) because of its Dutch culture.

With the historical influence from Dorvik I'd say that a minority is Reformed Hosian (Dorvisch Luthoran). The other part originally converted to Augustan Hosianism around 850 CE, did that Church develop into the TPC? If that is true, would the religious leader of Vanuku also be the Papez? I would find it rather useless to make another church just for Vanuku so I rather be part of the TPC. But if that is the case, would there be a religious leader that answers to the Papez to represent Vanuku? An Archbishop or Vicar or Cardinal?

Yeah, the TPC is the direct descendant of the Augustan Church, so Vanuku being part of the Majatran world and non-Eastern Patriarchal or Selucian, Terran Patriarchal is the best way to go. As far as the national branches of the Church go, the TPC is centralized (so no autocephalous or autonomous churches), but there are Cardinals and Archbishops, which is best left at the latitude of the players in the nation concerned.

the Augustan Church is one of those Churches that was sorta created and then sorta died out without anyone particularly taking care of it and cannot be really placed anywhere. It is Patriarchal as far as it was conceived and it definitely was part of the Council of Auroria in 500. Form that point on it could have either stayed with the Arch-Patriarch in Selucia after 1819 or have merged around 2300 with the TPC. In the second case it also could have separated from the TPC together with the Theognosian Church, although I find that unlikely.

I pretty much just created that church, give it some time, I'm working on it. The Augustan Church is supposed to represent the state church of the Roman Empire and the Byzantine part of the pre-1054 Roman Church, and I made that to create some backstory for the history of Hosianism in Majatra. The Augustan Church definitely died out after the fall of the Augustan Empire, as it wasn't a fully independent Church, but a self-sufficient branch of a larger communion.

I think that this might be a problem. It really sounds like the TPC is the Catholic Church before the reformation and the SPC is the Catholic Church in modern times. The thing is that Terra is in the year 3795 and I don't know if it is RP sustainable to continue with such a medieval Church. In the age of internet and infrastructure the Church would collapse immediately anywhere outside of Deltaria or where it is State Church

"Medieval" stuff happens all the time in RL nowadays too, and you don't always see contemporary institutions with Medieval practices collapsing as a result of the internet and infrastructure.

Personally I'd be opposed to the union of the TPC with any other Church unless it were a full merger with the TPC, including the acceptance of the supreme and absolute primacy of the Papez, the worship of the Deltarian gods, and the adoption of the Deltarian rite (basically the Russian-style Byzantine rite in Old Church Slavonic).

This really sounds unlikely because the SPC is larger and in a way older, and although the Arch-Patriarch is very open-minded, he would definitely not yield to an abusive power, and the people wouldn't like.

I think that we can discuss even further the idea of communion, maybe without a single head like autocephalous churches with different rites. Also, the Theognosian Church separated because of the abusiveness of the Papetz, so that merge is unlikely to happen.

Well yeah, but not impossible. The Church is very wealthy and powerful, so it can call a Crusade here and there, bribe a couple of bishops, infiltrate a Church hierarchy, or whatever. There was a time when the Papez was the only Pope.

Also, as I hold a leadership position in the TPC organization and I did a lot of work on the Church, I would like to represent the Papez, if Nick is fine with it.

I think this would be fine, although Nick control the czar so I don't who how that would be played out.

Well the Czarina and Papez don't seem to be getting along too well these days.

[egalion]

There was a time when the Papez was the only Pope.

Actually no. Between 1819 and the revival of the TPC by Radoslav Volic there was no Papetz, while the Arch-Patriarch in Selucia always existed.

[egalion]

the first Deltarian Pope was Peter I, also known as Radoslav Volic, who ascended the throne in 2104. before that the Terran Church did not exist but was simpy the HAHCT in Deltaria and until 1819 it was a subject of the Arch-Patriarch in Auroria.

OOC:

Polites, I understans that you really are tied to the Churches you created, but in order to make more sense of the religious RP we all have to be more rational. Also, what is the purpose of the Agustan Church? Since the Empire collapled in the 1400s, there was still the HAHCT that arguably was the only true church at the time. Was the Augustan Church a particular church within the HAHCT?

[Nickmaster]

In retrospect, I should've asked Polites his views on the matter. My sincerest apologies. Change of plans then. Polites, I will gladly step back and let you RP your creation.

The bribery scheme(which would, many years later, be revealed to be a fraud) would eventually lead to the incorporation of the Church into the government, using twisted religious logic and the hidden threat of brute force on behalf of the Czarina. With this new development, the Church shall simply be fined, and the gap between church and state widened.

Have at it.

[Polites]

OOC:

the first Deltarian Pope was Peter I, also known as Radoslav Volic, who ascended the throne in 2104. before that the Terran Church did not exist but was simpy the HAHCT in Deltaria and until 1819 it was a subject of the Arch-Patriarch in Auroria.

There was no Pope in Particracy before Deltarian players RPd Peter I, that's what I'm saying. It pisses me off a bit that a Church that did not exist IG until 2385 is given more credit than the very first Catholic Church in the Particracy world, which was almost unanimously accepted for a short while. The whole major scandal with the Catholic schisms of the 22nd century is a direct consequence of the fact that the Deltarian Pope was the only Pope at the time, widely accepted Terra-wide.

Polites, I understans that you really are tied to the Churches you created, but in order to make more sense of the religious RP we all have to be more rational. Also, what is the purpose of the Agustan Church? Since the Empire collapled in the 1400s, there was still the HAHCT that arguably was the only true church at the time. Was the Augustan Church a particular church within the HAHCT?

Yes! The AC is not a full Church in the sense of a body considering itself and being seen by its adherents as the One Holy Apostolic Church. It was the local branch of the HAHCoT and a particular church within it, and because it was closely tied to the Augustan Empire's government, it was for all intents and purposes an independent organization, although it did not see itself as that from an ecclesiastical point of view. The AC is not some creation I care about to the point of irrationality, it is a shorthand for the "State Church of the Augustan Empire".

In retrospect, I should've asked Polites his views on the matter. My sincerest apologies. Change of plans then. Polites, I will gladly step back and let you RP your creation.

The bribery scheme(which would, many years later, be revealed to be a fraud) would eventually lead to the incorporation of the Church into the government, using twisted religious logic and the hidden threat of brute force on behalf of the Czarina. With this new development, the Church shall simply be fined, and the gap between church and state widened.

Have at it.

Oh don't worry, the TPC is not my creation in the first place anyway, and the unofficial rule is to usually allow the Deltarian players do whatever they want with the Church and Pope, within certain limits ofc. I'll just use the Pope to make a couple of statements and issue an encyclical or two, I won't interfere with your RP.

[egalion]

OOC:
There was no Pope in Particracy before Deltarian players RPd Peter I, that's what I'm saying. It pisses me off a bit that a Church that did not exist IG until 2385 is given more credit than the very first Catholic Church in the Particracy world, which was almost unanimously accepted for a short while. The whole major scandal with the Catholic schisms of the 22nd century is a direct consequence of the fact that the Deltarian Pope was the only Pope at the time, widely accepted Terra-wide.

I totally understand your frustration, but since this game is not based on religion but on parties, these things happen all the time since people make up ther own religions.

This is the whole point of having this council.

Now, we have to decide what to do, because I think that the Patriarchal Church should be one, not three, and I believe you agree. The idea of three popes is non-sense.

The Deltarian Church may have been conceive before in RL, but at this point too much has been written and done to go back. You have to accept that the SPC has been established and it is nor RP older than the TPC. Also because it was in Auroria, where the council was held.

This is what I'm saying: we need to put the Catholic Church together so it will be easy to keep it under RP control and give it a sense. I don't believe that is is possisble to assimilate one into the other at this point. Would you see the RL Catholic Church converting in block to Orthodoxy and saying Mass in Slavonic?? Would you see the opposite with Russian Orthodox saying tridentine Mass?

I believe we should fin a solution, maybe with particular churches and shared leadership (even if I believe there should be only one Pope). But we have to be RP rational.

I'm not taking an absolute stance for the SPC as you are for the TPC, nor I think anyone should or this Council will be useless and Catholicism in Terra will continue to divide and go out of control.