46th General Assembly Session

[XanderOne]

Hans Zimmerman, legal representative of the McKennan & Associated legal practice, from Aloria

After the recent terrible news coming from Selucia, representing now not only the APC but also several selucian citizens who joined a class actions against their government, my legal practice would like to denounce to the World Congress the dictatorial actions of the Duodecimvirates as crimes against human foundamental rights.

- Since decades they adopted clear discriminatory anti-Hosian measures.

- They are forcing people to adhere to a state Aurorian religion created to expand their yoke over the Selucian People.

- They are forcing their citizens to adopt religious practices strangers to their creed.

- They are persecuting and arresting Selucian citizens who oppose to adhere to their state religion and to adopt the mentioned stranger religious practices.

- In conclusion, they are undermining the veritable freedom of religion of thousands and thousands of people, millions of people being the Aurorian Church the religion of more than 40% of the Selucian population.

For this reason my clients demand the intervention of the World Congress and of the Human Rights Office in the light of the abuses by part of the current Government of Selucia against the foundamental rights of its People.

Thank you

[Polites]

Traianus Bhaskara, Selucian representative to the World Congress:

Honored representatives,

Selucia wishes to extend her gratitude to the government of Endralon, who alone have shown their support to the Republic in the face of unprecedented pressure exercised by the illegitimate Aurorian Patriarchal Church.

I was also empowered by the Duodecimvirate to defend Selucia's policies against unfounded accusations brought against us by the illegitimate Church and by the McKennan & Associated legal practice. It is a clear example of monotheistic entitlement that, when it comes to monotheistic religions, religious freedom is confused with religious privilege. Just because the Aurorian Patriarchal Church has a large Terra-wide membership does not grant it exemption from complying with Selucian laws.

Imagine, if you will, that Terra's largest corporation were to refuse paying taxes in the nation where it is incorporated, for the sole reason that it is the largest and has branches in other nations. A company demanding such special treatment would be rightly derided and its claims rejected.

Why then does Terra's largest religion refuse the legitimate and fair legal requirements of the government under whose authority its leadership resides? Why does it openly defy these requirements, when all other religions in Selucia have freely accepted them? Why does it now have the audacity of demanding the intervention of this most sacred body into the internal affairs of our Republic, not because its rights are infringed, but because its privileges are threatened?

Honored Zimmerman claims that our government has implemented anti-Hosian measures and is forcing our citizens to change their religious practices. This is a most absurd accusation! Our policies are not directed against Hosianism, they demand the same burden from all religions in Selucia. Only the illegitimate Aurorian Patriarchal Church has deemed it below their dignity to follow laws that everyone else does.

He claims that our government created a state-sponsored Church to oppress Hosians. If the legitimate Aurorian Patriarchal Church truly is a state Church, it is appallingly bad at it, otherwise its leader, Arch-Patriarch Angelicus III, wouldn't be openly criticizing our government, as is his constitutional right as a Selucian citizen.

Mr. Zimmerman claims that we violate the human rights of our citizens by favoring our ancestral Gods. Behold, a clear example of monotheistic hypocrisy! If our government were to promote a monotheistic religion, nobody would bat an eye. If they were to sponsor atheism, nobody would even notice. But since they dare honor multiple divine Beings, they must surely be punished! First complain about how, in four nations on Terra, membership in the state religion is mandatory, or how 18 other countries have a state religion, or indeed about how religion is outright banned in two countries, while four others officially promote atheism. Meanwhile Selucia, which does not even have a state religion, is being stigmatized for honoring the Immoral Gods in our armed forces. Nobody is required to change their religion to participate in these rites, although monotheists are so intolerant they would sooner kill or die before honoring other Holy Beings than their jealous God. Meanwhile, nine nations force their citizens, even those with religious objections to violence, to perform military service.

If you want to talk about human rights violations, first go after the real offenders, and then you can look into the empty claims of a religious organization fearing the loss of its privileges.

[John Cracker]

Johnson Elgar, Likatonain Representative,

With all due respect to Seluca, the APC is defying domestic laws, not international ones, therefore it is your countries job to enforce your own laws, not ours.

[Polites]

Traianus Bhaskara, Selucian representative to the World Congress:

No offence taken, Mr. Elgar. We're not asking for World Congress support in enforcing our laws, we're only asking that busybodies like Mr. Zimmerman keep their nose out of internal Selucian affairs.

[XanderOne]

Hans Zimmerman, legal representative of the McKennan & Associated legal practice, from Aloria

Mr Bhaskara,
I'm a lawyer, working for the legal practice McKennan & Associated and we have been hired by our client to represent him. I'm not a private citizen, nor a foreign government or a member of a NGO. I'm just doing my work and as legal representative of our client me and my legal practice cannot "keep our nose out of internal selucian affairs". We have signed a contract with our client.

Furthermore, Mr Bhaskara, my legal practice is representing the APC and it is not our issue if there are a lot of nation where it is enforced mandatory adherence to this or that religion or if all religions are persecuted or if there is or not mandatory military service.
My legal practice have been hired by the APC to represent it and in case protect its interests in Selucia and also to protect its honorability towards false allegations, but this is another precedure which will be carried out toward the Endralonian Tribunals.

Then, Mr Bhaskara, it is useless to cry because your Pagan belief. My legal practice is not questionining your adherence to the traditional religious beliefs of Selucia and we are not promoting polytheism or monotheism, and to be honest personally I'm an agnostic, probably atheist. So, your crying about an attack to your polytheism is inappropriate.

Another inappropriate thing by your part is your statement according to which "Nobody is required to change their religion". Within the Armed Forces of Selucia, currently, is it or not mandatory to pursue sacrifices to honor Mamor? According to this law about the "Religion in the Military", it is stated that "all military commanders shall be required to take the auspices on a daily basis, and each camp is required to possess a shrine dedicated to the Gods. All military units shall be purified with the performance of a suovetaurilia sacrifice, the sacrifice of a pig, a sheep, and a bull." and it is also stated that "If any officer is unable or unwilling to discharge his or her duties to the Gods, the Duodevcmvirate shall find a suitable replacement". Thus, if an officer who doesn't adhere to the Religio Seluciana refuses to pursue such sacrifices, which for many other religions is something prohibited and probably unmoral, the Government is authorized to replace him and put an end to his career. Is it right? It's what this law states.
Isn't this really a form of discrimination against all those who doesn't believe to the traditional Selucian Gods? Only those which adhere to the Religio Seluciana, with this law, have actually the opportunity to pursue a military career and to reach the highest ranks of the Selucian military. What about the Ahmadis living in Selucia? Should also Ahmadis forced to partecipate to Seluciana Religio's sacrifices contrary to their religion which indeed provides when and how to perform sacrifices? Why not force them to slaughter a pig? Why not then organize festivities sacrificing cows? Garajans will be surely "happy" of such celebrations. And I'm suggesting this because it seems that the current Selucian Government likes to disturb or offend other religions.
Mr Bhaskara, let me know: how could react one of your Duodecimvirs adhering to the Religio Seluciana, maybe to the Imperator of your Armed Forces if he is Pagan, if someone should ask him or her to forcifully partecipate to the cerimony of the Sacrifice of Gratitude within an Aurorian Church?

Again, is it true or not that currently thousands of Ministries of the Aurorian Patriarchal Church are being arrested because their faith? The Govenrment of Selucia can say that they are being arrested because they doesn't comply with the law about the Constitution of the Clergy, but actually they are not just defending their "workplace" or their position, but they are defending their veritable religious doctrine which doesn't provide any form of popular elections for Ministries. It is irrelevant how in the past Ministries and the Arch-Patriarchs were elected, because the Church and its doctrine established millennia ago the rites to elect the Arch-Patriarch as well as the oriestly ordination rites, rites which are absolutely necessary so that they can validly perform all the acts proper to the priest, that is, the sacraments and other pastoral tasks.

Such rites are foundamental parts of the Aurorian Church, such rites are part of the veritable beliefs and doctrine of the Aurorian Patriarchal Church and even define it. It is right of the Selucian Government to ask to those Ministries with Selucian citizenship to swear a solemn oath to obey the laws of the Republic, to be loyal to the Senate and People of Selucia, because, indeed, it is something requested to any citizen of any nation of Terra. But it is a form of religious discrimination to ask someone to infringe his doctrine and force them to change his rites, especially when such rites doesn't infringe the personal freedom and doesn't harm the property of nobody.

But the Selucian Government cannot demands to a whole Religion to change its core doctrines, cannot attack the dogma and the most important parts of the veritable religious doctrine of the APC, as well as of any other organized religion and it is questionable how people who are defending their beliefs, without harming any other citizens of Selucia, now are "deprived of the protection of the law and are to lose all their civil rights". Even to terrorists or other ordinary criminals are granted protection of the law and of their rights within a nation which defines itself a democracy, and today, seeing such acts, Selucia is really far to be a healthy democracy.
How the Aurorian Patriarch Rites, Dogmas and Beliefs could harm the Selucian State or the Selucian Citizens? How the Aurorian Patriarchal Church is acting in order to menace the Selucian People? Can the Selucian Government show us some evidence of illegal or harmful conduct or actions against the Selucian People so to justify such persecution and repression? I think I can already responding for you: your Government has not evidence of any harmfull action by part of the APC against the Selucian People or Selucian State. With the Constitution of the Clergy, which is just an illegal, arbitral, unilateral, discriminatory law and which is not thought to protect citizens or private and public property, have been enacted just and only to promote and consolidate the religious beliefs of the current regime, a measure of oppression of the current fanatical religious Government against the APC, because they simply doesn't accept that the Aurorianism is the majoritarian religion in Selucia, but in general it is a form of oppression against any other religion which doesn't comply with the arbitrary Will of these Duodecimvirs in order. as said, to consolidate their own religion, which in nature, furthermore, is very different from other organized beliefs because it is view and considered as a veritable "civil religion", strictly connected with the public affairs, veritable part of the so called mos maiorum, Selucian tradition or ancestral custom and official cults are actually state funded as a "matter of public interest", where the role of public official and religious ministry are not so much separated, and in fact recently a Censor of Selucia performed a suovetaurilia and the Duodecimvirs themself arranged for a religious ceremony to be host on the Selucian Altar of the Republic, reconsecrated as Temple of the Goddess Selucia, just one of the religious building in Selucia owned by the State and administrated by the State. Thus, the Duodecimvirs and their regime are actually trying to change and reshape the APC rituals and dogmas in order to comply with the foundamentals of the Religio Seluciana. I don't find any difference from the "medieval Church State" whiche the current regime, despite more than 4000 years passed, indicated as a "dangerous threat" for the People of Selucia. I saw just a changement in the State's divinity worshipped.

Personally I can say that it is questionable in modern days and into a claimed democracy such admixture of public and religious affairs, after millennia of struggles to uphold and defend the principle of the separation of state and religion, but these are personal thoughts.
What I can say for certain it is that the current Selucian Government doesn't need to enact a law to establish a state religion, the veritable nature of the Religio Seluciana authomatically make it the Official State religion. And about this last point: Mr Bhaskara, can you explain what would happen if a non-pagan Censor refuse to pursue its "religious state duties"? Or If a Consul refuses to honor the Godess Selucia on the Altar? Or maybe are Hosians, Ahmadis, ecc... ecc... excluded from the Censorship or the Consulship? If this is the case, this is another form of discrimination Mr Bhaskara.
It is useless to hide all the hypocrisy and the discriminatory nature of these religious fanatical Duodecimvirs and of their measures.

For all these reason as legal defender of the APC I'm calling for the intervention of the World Congress Human Rights Office. And about this, Mr Elgar, the veritable existence of the World Congress Human Rights Office authorize me and any other organization or single citizens to denounce and ask an intervention. The veritable existence of the World Congress Human Rights Office make the World Congress authorized to intervene and states on such matters. When the foundamental human rights are infringed it is not at all anymore an internal affair of this or that nation. And here, as said, I'm representing the APC and I cannot speak on behalf of other Peoples or individuals which are suffering around the world in other nations. This should be interest of the World Congress Human Rights Office and of the other Partners of the World Congress, like the Human Rights Foundation.

Finally, about His Holiness the Arch-Patriarchs Thomas Justus, being a Vanukean citizens, he is not at all obbliged to swear oath to the Selucian State as well as as foreign citizens he cannot be forced to be a civil servant of the Selucian State, as well as all his non-Selucian collaborators. In case of any harmful action against the Arch-Patriarch or any other non-Selucian personnel of the APC, we have to warn the Selucian Government that it will be interest of the nations from where these people come to intervene in order to protect their citizens.

Thank you.

[XanderOne]

Hans Zimmerman, legal representative of the McKennan & Associated legal practice, from Aloria

I would like inform you that our client is about to present to the Selucian Tribunal a request of compensation for the lost suffered by part of the Aurorian Patriarchal Church of its assets and properties in Selucia.

The current Selucian Law states that the victimes of seizure of property by part of the Government set compensation.

I'm keeping informed everyone and the World Congress Human Rights Office because we fear that the Selucian Government could refuse to even consider it despite the selucian law and because the Selucian Govenrment actually never mentioned any sort of compensation when requisitioned and confiscated the properties of the Church.

The Empyrean Temple value of course is incalculable and thus, with an downward estimate, our expertises estimated around 18 billion of [CURRENCY] (OOC: I don't know how to convert 18 billion of € in LOD , please consider the corresponding value). It was estimated that the Arch-Basilica construction cost was around current 5.3 billions of [CURRENCY] (OOC: corresponding value of 5.3 billion €), to which we have to add further 10 billions for the surrounding area (medieval and renascential walls surrounding all the Empyrean Temple, the Holy Apostolic Palaces, the Empyrean Museum, the Convent of the Most Venerable Daughters of Sarae, the Empyeran Temple Rail Station, the Empyrean Gardens, all the architectural other structures, the Justus III Audience Hall and several other minor buildings). Finally, a very downward estimate was established for the artistic works within the Empyrean Temple: 2.7 billion of [CURRENCY] (OOC: corresponding value of 2.7 billion €).

Then, we have to add the loss of earnings for 200 million/year from the Museum only, demanding at least 50 years of compensation, thus 10 billions [CURRENCY] (OOC: corresponding value of 10 billion €).

About the assets in Selucia and Auroria seized to the APC, we have a more precise figure of 9.856.478.905 [CURRENCY] (OOC: corresponding value of 9.856.478.905 €) to which we have to add the revenue from the real estate properties throughout Selucia: 4 billions/year for at least 10 years of compensation, thus 40 billions [CURRENCY] (OOC: corresponding value of 40 billion €).

In total, the APC is demanding 77.856.478.905 [CURRENCY] (OOC: corresponding value of 77.856.478.905 €) of compensation from the Selucian State for the lost of assets and properties suffered in Selucia.

Once the Selucian Government compared the APC to a corporation, so following a similar line of thinking, it is only fair and reasonable that the APC is also considered a corporation in this case, a private actor who requests and wants fair compensation.

Also a fair compensation for a government seizure of assets is to be considered as a right of any legal person and for this reason, as said, we are informing also the World Congress, because if the Selucian Government should refuse, well... they will be nothing different than thiefs.

Thank you

(OOC: For the figures:
- For the estimation of the Empyrean Temple's Arch-Basilica, I found that the cost of the construction of Saint Peter's Basilica was estimated around 46,800,052 medieval/renascential ducats which correspond to 5.4 billion USD dollar today. (https://www.quora.com/How-much-would-it ... lica-today I paste it because it is in english).

- About the museum revenue I found an online news stating that in 2017 the Vatican Museum has cashed 200 million of €. Thus 200.000.000 x 50 y = 10.000.000.000 €.

- About the assets, I read in several online news that the Vatican has assets in Italy for more than 11.000.000.000 € (I just decreased a little the figure) and revenues from the real estates around 4 billion each year. Thus 4.000.000.000 x 10 y = 40.000.000.000 €.)

[robmark0000]

Krén József, Legal Representative from the Multinational Company for Civil Liberties, from Endralon

Fellow sovereign citizens, may I introduce myself, my name is Krén József, and I am a legal representative from the Endralonian private law firm Multinational Company for Civil Liberties, and currently I am representing the Office of the World Congress Security Council Representative of the Directorial Republic of Endralon, so basically Ms. Szűcs Tamara herself.

I think we all can agree that the largest problem with many sovereign nation-states on this planet is that they could turn into dictatorships and could make dictatorial laws without the control of a world leading entity. With many other Endralonians, we are in favor of a world republic, where basic human rights, including freedom of religion is existing, but in the current dark times with nations we took the risk that some nations could make dictatorial laws. The Auroran Patriarchal Church took the risk.
But if we believe in national sovereignty, we should believe that states could make their own laws, what has to be respected by its citizens. Citizens, your states, every one of you, recognizing the Senatus Populusque Selucianus, and legitimating the ruling of the Duodecimvirate (including you, Mr. Zimmerman, in the moment when you mentioned it). If you recognizing, you took the responsibility to recognizing its laws also, even if they're dictatorial.

I announce with pain in heart, but currently, the laws of the sovereign nations are SACRED. (You can mention the Human Rights Office, but it is seems doing nothing at the moment, and I think I can tell you that I think it won't ) Including the Republic's laws.
From this perspective, Mr. Zimmerman, your client did the next: inciting the Selucian Hosian population to don't respect the laws of the Res Publica, with the simple dilemma, that if they obeying their national laws, then they will be excommunicated by their religious laws.

Stop a moment! What is excommunication? When the Auroran Patriarchal Church excommunicating one of its members. But do not be stupid, it is not that "You are no longer our friend, go with peace!", no! In the medieval era, who was excommunicated, that people could be "legally" killed, that people no longer enjoyed the moral and legal protection of the back then powerful Church. However, the state provide you legal protection, but isn't this excommunication is a call for the Auroran fundamentalist groups to kill the excommunicated heretics? You couldn't deny it, Mr. Zimmerman, the APC wouldn't judge these groups if they would kill an excommunicated human, because the religious laws. I think this is something like inciting murdering, what is a crime, Mr. Zimmerman.

This is two criminal activities: with excommunication, the APC inciting murdering, and also with this excommunication its trying to intervene in the Selucian legislation. This is our named criminal activities what you asked from us. The Office of the WCSC Rep doesn't considering the opinion of Ms. Szűcs as a defamation, as a public servant, she has the right to propose a Resolution, with any text she want. The Security Council will decide that this is defamation or not, with its members vote on the Resolution-bill.

Thank you

[Polites]

Traianus Bhaskara, Selucian representative to the World Congress:

To be clear, Mr. Zimmerman, did your client hire you to represent them in the Selucian courts, or to advocate for them in the World Congress? If it is the latter, perhaps Mr. Zimmerman is aware that the World Congress is not a court of law, and that should your client have any grievance against our government they are free to address this body themselves.

In regards to the baseless accusations of religious discrimination, any close investigation of our legislation shows that nobody is required to participate in any religious ritual agains their will. Here a situation analogous to conscientious objection arises. In Selucia, as in all civilized democracies, conscientious objectors are exempted from military service, even though this means that conscientious objectors are effectively deprived of a military career. Same with sacrifices in the military. Those with religious objections to them are exempt from engaging in these practices, even though it effectively ends their military career. The question of how my government would react if they were forced to participate in an Aurorian Sacrifice of Gratitude shows an immense lack of sensitivity and the truly offensive anti-Pagan bias of Mr. Zimmerman. The hypothetical that he describes is a painful reality for many Pagan and polytheist peoples around the world, who, throughout thousands of years of hegemonic monotheism, have been tortured, killed, had their sacred groves and sacred trees polluted and destroyed, and forced at gunpoint to convert to an alien deity. Pagans, polytheists, animists, and those who practice magic are, throughout the world, a conquered and colonized people, as the Western world itself emerged from the ashes of Pagan beliefs and practices, systematically burned at the stake during the witch hunts at the birth of the modern scientistic empires. The genocidal eradication of indigenous polytheisms, including that of the Selucian people, is something that this body should be concerned about, not the fact that our soldiers eat bacon that was consecrated to Mamors.

As for the monetary compensation claimed by the APC, I am most thankful to Mr. Zimmerman for bringing to the attention of the whole world the immense riches that the Aurorian Patriarchal Church stole from the Selucian people. I genuinely thank him for publicly exposing Hosian hypocrisy all on his own. Whether or not the Church is entitled to this compensation is a matter for Selucian courts to decide, the World Congress is not in the business of intervening in property disputes. In fact, I believe the Church should be grateful to the Government for nationalizing all religious property. Hosians are commanded in their scriptures to leave behind all their worldly possessions and follow Eliyahu. Our government is helping them become better Hosians and thus, according to their own beliefs, assisting them in entering Heaven. But if instead they show themselves subject to the sin of greed, I believe that the decent salary offered to all ministers of religion should cover the enormous amount claimed by the Church within a century. There are currently around 45,000 Aurorian priests and bishops in Selucia (OOC: based on the number of priests in Italy, with a comparable Catholic/Aurorian population). With a salary of (OOC EUR) 1,441 per month the sum demanded by the Church would be returned within a hundred years. And this is not counting the fact that the Constitution of the Clergy grants each minister of religion a free dwelling.

So, sure, go ahead, drag the Selucian government in court, and show the world that the Church cares about money first, and all the spirituality and religion is just window dressing. Or show some Hosian humility and leave financial matters to those who do not claim that poverty is a virtue.

[Drax]

Tatania P. Vasilievskaya, Representative of the Federated Socialist Republic of Trigunia

Does any attorney representing any party or for that matter anyone know a) if the APC ever sent, mail, presented or otherwise gave notice of any request or demand for damages or just compensation to Seleucia, b) if there was such a demand, what was the response of Seleucia, and c) if the World Congress or its General Assembly is the first place the suggestion of damages or just compensation has been raised as if the World Congress were a court of law considering eminent domain civil liability in an appropriately selected jurisdiction?

[jamescfm]

The Most Reverend Candidus Vestorius, Special Representative of the Aurorian Patriarchal Church:

On behalf of the Church, I would like to raise a point of order.