OTAF and IATC

[Reddy]

Gutter language and aggression? You can hardly convey tone over the internet so I'd be hard pressed to believe it even comes off like that.

There were a lot of four letter words and exclamation marks. I'd say your tone was crystal clear.

I do have a problem with people sitting there and thinking that their nation is invincible and that they can have a dozen aircraft carriers because, well we have the largest GDP or the I don't care about what you say. That I have a problem and it does indeed piss me off but again, hardly able to convey that without caps and foul language but I appreciate the uh, help, I guess?

You are welcome But seriously can you imagine a panel of experts including where you talked to people this way and they would actually follow your recommendations?

With that being said, you can join the rest who believe "unless it's official I won't listen" because that likely won't happen. You have to remember as a Moderator your job isn't to evolve the game, it's to keep the status quo and if someone comes along and proposes something that changes the status quo, in this sense the Rildanor Accords, they'll likely be shot down. For example, when I approached Aquinas about working to make OTAF official I essentially go shot down because Amaz wasn't here and we all know what happens when he returns. That's the fundamental problem I have with this game, it's focused on broken game mechanics and internet egos.

Well as someone who's generally conservative, I oppose pointless changes but I do think Moderation should be innovative and encourage innovation. The game should be a living, breathing and growing thing,

As for OTAf, I think Aquinas made the right decision on that if only because he was right - he can't make such decisions with consulting the senior Mod Amaz especially since he's expected to be returning soon. You must also understand this: I don't oppose OTAF, however I think it should get official before it starts offering its opinions. I mean what if someone started an unofficial OTAF enforcing god modding, what's to stop them?

I wish we had people like we did before when the Rildanor Accords were built who actually wanted the game to progress instead of accepting the status quo because they think they have some sort of power.

We believe in different kinds of progress clearly.

In reality, why am I even trying to build OTAF when players such as yourself would rather just say "Fuck you Farsun" and go with a billion troops and infinite tanks and planes and just bitch about the other guy doing the same. I mean it, really.

I find that to be really unfair. I don't god-mod. Ever. If anything I can remember losing numerous conflicts and deliberately weakening the Great Jelbek Horde through all kinds of methods - disease, budget cuts etc. However I still think it's a bad idea for OTAF (I was criticising your post in your capacity as the OTAF Chief, not personally. I don't know you at all to be criticising you personally.) to be too intrusive in RP, even when invited. Yes, it's unrealistic that every PT country has projection power, but if we apply too much realism here, how many countries will be able to partake in military RP? Sometimes realism has to be dropped in the interests of practicality.

but since no one actually does give a shit, I'll respond because maybe someday we'll have people who are about progress and not the status quo. I agree, size should play a factor but not as much as I believe you want.

And as I said, even if the half (quarter baked?) baked idea of mine were accepted, it would still have to go together with several factors. That would be the realistic thing as I've acknowledged numerous times that this is not a perfect, or maybe even good idea.

[TheNewGuy]

the senior Mod Amaz

I'm so tired of this crap.

[Reddy]

A discussion is exactly what we are having, right? Pardon if I come across blunt in any way.

The Romania example only strengthens your argument partially, once you start comparing the gear and training the quality of the smaller Dutch forces comes a long way. I agree that a council wouldn't work on hindsight, nobody would be happy with who would be deciding it and so forth. I think the only true way is once you organize a war that, before you start, together you plan the course of the war (as is the 'rules' today) but you also make arrangements on how big your armies are and what kind of stuff you are fielding, nobody will agree to give both sides 50 super carriers and 50,000 Leopard tanks.

Plus a lot of ego-inflated forces are usually beat down by the community itself, we shouldn't be afraid to criticize each other as long as we keep it civil. But nation sizes is a too arbitrary number to decide such matters, especially since all Particracy nations have the same population numbers except for the odd one out like Keymon.

No you did not come across as blunt at all, I was just making it clear that I recognise the many troubling weaknesses of this little idea and I'm not forcefully advocating it but just trying to spark a discussion about it.

As for Romania-Netherlands, I agree completely. As I said earlier, military size is not that important, they are many other factors. And yes, indeed, in the end the OOC Agreement is the bible of any war RP.

[Reddy]

the senior Mod Amaz

I'm so tired of this crap.

?

[Farsun]

There were a lot of four letter words and exclamation marks. I'd say your tone was crystal clear.

I count one exclamation mark and that was at the end in a non-agressive manner.

But seriously can you imagine a panel of experts including where you talked to people this way and they would actually follow your recommendations?

I'm rather professional in my OTAF things ironically enough.

Well as someone who's generally conservative, I oppose pointless changes but I do think Moderation should be innovative and encourage innovation. The game should be a living, breathing and growing thing,

As for OTAf, I think Aquinas made the right decision on that if only because he was right - he can't make such decisions with consulting the senior Mod Amaz especially since he's expected to be returning soon. You must also understand this: I don't oppose OTAF, however I think it should get official before it starts offering its opinions. I mean what if someone started an unofficial OTAF enforcing god modding, what's to stop them?

It's a double edged sword really, because people want to see what its about but don't want to hear it when it goes against them? It's one of those things ya know, they wanna see it in work prior to being official but dont want it official because it'll make them actually have to invest something.

I find that to be really unfair. I don't god-mod. Ever. If anything I can remember losing numerous conflicts and deliberately weakening the Great Jelbek Horde through all kinds of methods - disease, budget cuts etc. However I still think it's a bad idea for OTAF (I was criticising your post in your capacity as the OTAF Chief, not personally. I don't know you at all to be criticising you personally.) to be too intrusive in RP, even when invited. Yes, it's unrealistic that every PT country has projection power, but if we apply too much realism here, how many countries will be able to partake in military RP? Sometimes realism has to be dropped in the interests of practicality.

Intrusive? I hardly call it intrusive, I call it what most moderators/RP moderators do on most RP sites. We're treating this game as a game not a play by post RP, which it is. We keep emphasizing that this is a game that automates the rules and things, it doesn't. We haven't developed a set of RP rules and as someone whose RP'd for nearly a decade on many sites, yeah I think I know what I'm doing when it comes to RPing and most people with a little guidance from veteran RPers can grow into those very veteran RPers.

For reference, most nations have projection power...regionally which most people RP in. Not internationally, but it can be done but again, people don't listen to that lmao.

the senior Mod Amaz

100% agree with Zanz. 100% He is senior in seniority but not power, one thing he explained to all of us when we were mods.

[TheNewGuy]

the senior Mod Amaz

I'm so tired of this crap.

?

Amaz has done almost 0 for this game in roughly the past 3-4 years, other than nearly blow it up when he decided to handle Farsun's rage poorly. Sure, he sat there and ran inactive sweeps every 10 days or so, but he was even terrible at that. He never enforced Protocols, he felt he could overrule his two fellow moderators on his own say-so because he was "senior" mod. I was not perfect (not nearly) and neither was Farsun, but at least we tried. Aquinas, since I've spoken to you about this in private, if you're reading, I ask again that you do away with the notion that Amaz is somehow "senior" to you. He's sat in the seat longer, but you've been a better mod in a matter of a few months than he's been in a few years, and you need to start removing your own guardrails and doing what you want to do - you were entrusted with the moderatorship and should use it to better the game, not just see yourself as some interim candidate until the decision-maker (Ha!) returns.

[Farsun]

Amaz has done almost 0 for this game in roughly the past 3-4 years, other than nearly blow it up when he decided to handle Farsun's rage poorly. Sure, he sat there and ran inactive sweeps every 10 days or so, but he was even terrible at that. He never enforced Protocols, he felt he could overrule his two fellow moderators on his own say-so because he was "senior" mod. I was not perfect (not nearly) and neither was Farsun, but at least we tried. Aquinas, since I've spoken to you about this in private, if you're reading, I ask again that you do away with the notion that Amaz is somehow "senior" to you. He's sat in the seat longer, but you've been a better mod in a matter of a few months than he's been in a few years, and you need to start removing your own guardrails and doing what you want to do - you were entrusted with the moderatorship and should use it to better the game, not just see yourself as some interim candidate until the decision-maker (Ha!) returns.

Zanz you're asking too much dude, really. Aquinas is worried he'll do to him what he did to us.

[TheNewGuy]

Amaz has done almost 0 for this game in roughly the past 3-4 years, other than nearly blow it up when he decided to handle Farsun's rage poorly. Sure, he sat there and ran inactive sweeps every 10 days or so, but he was even terrible at that. He never enforced Protocols, he felt he could overrule his two fellow moderators on his own say-so because he was "senior" mod. I was not perfect (not nearly) and neither was Farsun, but at least we tried. Aquinas, since I've spoken to you about this in private, if you're reading, I ask again that you do away with the notion that Amaz is somehow "senior" to you. He's sat in the seat longer, but you've been a better mod in a matter of a few months than he's been in a few years, and you need to start removing your own guardrails and doing what you want to do - you were entrusted with the moderatorship and should use it to better the game, not just see yourself as some interim candidate until the decision-maker (Ha!) returns.

Zanz you're asking too much dude, really. Aquinas is worried he'll do to him what he did to us.

Clarification: what he did to you. I never had major issues with Amaz myself - it was in moderating between the two of you and the extremes that you represented that I had my worst times as a mod. It's why I quit, not the other crap - it just was exhausting being the middle ground between absolute inactivity (Amaz) and ultra-activity (You). Aquinas hasn't had to deal with that at all, but he's saddled himself with some nonsense and destructive idea that he's got to defer to Amazeroth (I've got no idea why) and I'm asking him not to subscribe to that thought pattern anymore.

[Reddy]

I see what you mean Zanz. Nowhere did I say Aquinas had to defer to Amaz. I'm not going to argue against the established fact all Mods have the same powers on paper but I would imagine after a longtime in any position, you gain more influence than a newly appointed person. I mean who's more likely to influence Wouter in this scenario? Anyway what I meant to ask in that post is that: would it be wise to make such a major decision (IMO) without consulting your fellow Mod? I don't think it would be, if your fellow mod disagrees, a U-Turn would damage your authority.

[TheNewGuy]

would it be wise to make such a major decision (IMO) without consulting your fellow Mod?

I'm going to bow out of this thread after this post because I'm sure I've just given Aquinas quite a headache and I didn't even come online today with the intention of trolling. But this piece is important to address: if we had a working mod team, I'd agree with you. Moderators should make decisions in consultation with one another. But Particracy does not have, and has not had a working mod team in years. Really not since Liu and Darvian walked away from it. Coincidentally (or not, if you're a cynic like me) that period happens to correspond to Amaz's "senior moderator" tenure. He hasn't shown interest in actual modding in years, he disappears at random (not speaking to this period of illness but in general), he delayed finding new moderators when we desperately needed them (we only got Aquinas due to his sickness), he vetos things rather arbitrarily both in facing the community and in private with his fellow mods, but he still finds time to argue the minutiae of Keynesian economics with EEL or whatever. He's a great member of the community, fine. He can post in Off Topic whenever he wants. But I cannot for the life of me understand why he's still a mod at all, much less the "senior" mod.