Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby Auditorii » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:39 pm

jamescfm wrote:
Auditorii wrote:Why not make this binding? It makes no sense to keep up with the idea that "Oh, call it whatever you want." Make it definitive and go from there.

Firstly, as I don't think it's fair on others who may have used the former names for role-play in the past, especially players who are no longer actively involved so can't contribute to any discussions. However, I don't think it's necessary to do so, either. If people ask what x, y or z body of water is called, I can just direct them to the map and "this is what I call, you can too".


but why? Why do we have such an avoidance to solidfying histories, names, stories, ideas. Instead we are constantly changing things and editing them and it provides no plausible backstory because "Oh, well, maybe we shouldn't because some person who hasn't played the game in 10 years might not appreciate it."
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby jamescfm » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:45 pm

Auditorii wrote:but why? Why do we have such an avoidance to solidfying histories, names, stories, ideas. Instead we are constantly changing things and editing them and it provides no plausible backstory because "Oh, well, maybe we shouldn't because some person who hasn't played the game in 10 years might not appreciate it."

It isn't fair to make decisions on behalf of a community of hundreds of players and it isn't worth trying. Whether the map I produced is considered official/binding or not, most players will use those names and the same effect will be achieved while still allowing the opportunity for those who want to use different names to use them. On top of that, it's not realistic to have a single set of standardised names. For example, the Antarctic Ocean is known by three different names and some don't even accept that it's an ocean at all.
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby Auditorii » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:50 pm

jamescfm wrote:
Auditorii wrote:but why? Why do we have such an avoidance to solidfying histories, names, stories, ideas. Instead we are constantly changing things and editing them and it provides no plausible backstory because "Oh, well, maybe we shouldn't because some person who hasn't played the game in 10 years might not appreciate it."

It isn't fair to make decisions on behalf of a community of hundreds of players and it isn't worth trying. Whether the map I produced is considered official/binding or not, most players will use those names and the same effect will be achieved while still allowing the opportunity for those who want to use different names to use them. On top of that, it's not realistic to have a single set of standardised names. For example, the Antarctic Ocean is known by three different names and some don't even accept that it's an ocean at all.


It's pretty cut and dry when the RP Team, alongside Moderation, puts out a map and says hey, here are the official names of the bodies of water in the game. If you want to call the Majatran Sea the Jelbic Sea, cool that's fine but just know that the official name is the Majatran Sea. What that does it presents opportunity for RP elements that are otherwise neglected in this game. Instead, if you want to call it the Blue Sea because you think its a pretty name...it's okay. We understand.
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby Lucca » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:00 am

jamescfm wrote:Courtesy of the National Oceanographic Society of Indrala:
Image

Please let me know if this contradicts any existing role-play and I'll endeavour to harmonise them :)

Just struck me extremely odd, that there exists a "Jelbic Sea", but it's not anywhere near Jelbania ... nor even anywhere near the Jelbic-influenced-to-some-degree-or-other nations of Pontesi, Barmenia, and Vanuku ...
but instead it's somehow the crucial crossroads sea off the coast of Endralon, Luthori, Keymon, and Likatonia. :?

I vaguely remember some long-ago RP where Luthori conquered one or more of the Jelbic-influenced nations.
But although it might make some sense for landmarks in or near a colonised nation to bear names imposed by their colonial overlord, doing it the other way around makes no sense at all. At least to me. :?

The name "Maddog" reminds me of Keymon; "Mad Dog Ocean" I feel would be suitable here if you want. It's currently the sea immediately northeast of here, and could possibly be extended to here. At least it would make much, much more sense than naming it for very faraway and unrelated Jelbania, I feel.


If there needs to be a "Jelbic Sea" somewhere, how about the gulf bordered on two sides by Vanuku and on a third by Barmenia? (unless that one has a name already)
That's right in the middle of the Jelbic part of the world.
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby CCP » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:15 am

Lucca wrote:
jamescfm wrote:Courtesy of the National Oceanographic Society of Indrala:
Image

Please let me know if this contradicts any existing role-play and I'll endeavour to harmonise them :)

Just struck me extremely odd, that there exists a "Jelbic Sea", but it's not anywhere near Jelbania ... nor even anywhere near the Jelbic-influenced-to-some-degree-or-other nations of Pontesi, Barmenia, and Vanuku ...
but instead it's somehow the crucial crossroads sea off the coast of Endralon, Luthori, Keymon, and Likatonia. :?

I vaguely remember some long-ago RP where Luthori conquered one or more of the Jelbic-influenced nations.
But although it might make some sense for landmarks in or near a colonised nation to bear names imposed by their colonial overlord, doing it the other way around makes no sense at all. At least to me. :?

The name "Maddog" reminds me of Keymon; "Mad Dog Ocean" I feel would be suitable here if you want. It's currently the sea immediately northeast of here, and could possibly be extended to here. At least it would make much, much more sense than naming it for very faraway and unrelated Jelbania, I feel.


If there needs to be a "Jelbic Sea" somewhere, how about the gulf bordered on two sides by Vanuku and on a third by Barmenia? (unless that one has a name already)
That's right in the middle of the Jelbic part of the world.


Yeah, where did you get the Jelbic Sea name from, James. Old maps on the wiki have the Mad Dog Ocean stretching right to the east coast of Artania.
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby jamescfm » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:02 am

First thing to note is that seas and oceans are different things and that all seas are part of an ocean. So in this instance, the Jelbic Sea is actually part of the Mad Dog Ocean anyway. I created a rough outline of where I considered the five oceans to be, which you can see here, though I emphasise it is rough.

In terms of why I named it that, you can find an in-character explanation on the wiki page, where the controversial nature of the name is admitted. In an out-of-character sense, I liked the name Jelbic Sea but had nowhere to realistically use it since the South Ocean, Majatran Sea and Sea of Lost Souls are all reasonably developed. Since the sea which provides a border between the Mad Dog and South Oceans had no name, I decided to use it there and develop an interesting little backstory. As I noted earlier, you can call it whatever you like :)
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby Lucca » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:32 am

Well, from reading your wiki page, what it looks like, is that that's what (even-farther-away! and furthermore irrelevant) Indrala has chosen to call it.

I see absolutely no reason why any of the other 57 nations should care about Indrala's nonsensical opinion here.


But at least you did allude to that in your post:
Courtesy of the National Oceanographic Society of Indrala:

So again, in other words, this constitutes merely Indrala's opinion.


On your wiki page:
these are not binding and shouldn't be considered official

Thankfully. Very thankfully.

But this point needs to be stated more prominently.



Please feel free to offer feedback either to me personally or on this thread.

Well, please consider this to be my feedback, as a long-time player.

I liked the name Jelbic Sea but had nowhere to realistically use it since the South Ocean, Majatran Sea and Sea of Lost Souls are all reasonably developed.

:roll: My previous post, please....




(And thank you CCP! :) )
Last edited by Lucca on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby jamescfm » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:46 am

Alright, thanks for that. If you had read the thread before you began throwing bizarre accusations around, you'd have seen that I already told Axxell "you're free to call them what you please but I thought this might help us to reference them in role-play". Do you plan to use a different name for these oceans in your role-play? If so, I could add them as alternatives or are you just opposed to other players naming them on principle?
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby Lucca » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:18 pm

Do you plan to use a different name for these oceans in your role-play?

I have no plans to conduct RP in those areas. (I have no plans to conduct RP at all.)

The only areas I've mentioned are primarily the one around Keymon; and then the one between Vanuku and Barmenia, secondarily.

or are you just opposed to other players naming them on principle?

I would love to see it be given a name -- a name that either clearly makes sense given its geographical location, or is neutral.
I strongly oppose it being given a blatantly geographically misleading name, and that obviously misleading name then gradually (or quickly) ever becoming the de-facto (or even worse yet de-jure) standard for it.

For that matter, as long as it were to be somehow guaranteed that such a misleading name shall never become the standard no matter what -- and that it shall remain free to be given a geographically appropriate or neutral name in the future which can itself then become the standard -- then I would have no problem with this.


If we have here any long-time players of the nations which border that sea, I strongly recommend asking them for what names they've already used for it; (and if they haven't used any yet, then for their suggestions of suitable, sensible, geographically appropriate or neutral names for it).
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Re: Standardized Naming of Oceans and Seas

Postby jamescfm » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:34 pm

Lucca wrote:I have no plans to conduct RP in those areas. (I have no plans to conduct RP at all.)

[...]

If we have here any long-time players of the nations which border that sea, I strongly recommend asking them for what names they've already used for it; (and if they haven't used any yet, then for their suggestions of suitable, sensible, geographically appropriate or neutral names for it).

Without wanting to appear discourteous, the length of time a player has played is far less important than their role-play activity. I produced this map and I'm undertaking this project for players who are interested in role-play, so that we can use a consistent set of terms. If you're not interested in role-play then it's not relevant to you and will affect you in no way whatsoever.
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