Lack of constructive Debates

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Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Syavash » Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:38 pm

I joined the game yesterday with great hopes. What bothers me is that in the nation I chose, there is no real debate about proposed bills, people just vote, and a lot of times just to keep others from passing their proposals. This leads to a lot of flip flopping and also to parties not having a clear thesis on most of the issues. I believe the most important part of the game should be at the debate stage with people expressing their point of views and even sometimes making deals. but so far I've been disappointed. Is it like this in all of the nations?
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Siggon Kristov » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:49 pm

Syavash wrote:I believe the most important part of the game should be at the debate stage with people expressing their point of views and even sometimes making deals.

That's what I believe is the most important part of the game as well.

Syavash wrote:Is it like this in all of the nations?

No.
Check out Rutania, Hobrazia, Telamon or Hutori. If you're a Capitalist, maybe Gaduridos might work for you.
In Beluzia, we do have decent debates.
I remember when I was in Indrala, we had decent debates as well.

Here are some in Beluzia:
Usage of Lethal Force
Legality of Whaling
Laissez-Nous Fait Laissez-Nous Faire
The Right to Fire People

Here are some I did in Indrala (as the Renmin Zhenxian de Indrala):
Secularity
Review of Drug Laws
Review of Abortion Laws
Review of Nudity Laws

I remember a nice debate in Egelion, where I even convinced the other party to change its view by stressing on the wording of the bill:
Review of Sexual Ethics Laws

So see? There have been nice debates, but it takes a set of active players like those in Beluzia ;)
Check out my latest Particracy project, and feel free to discuss it in the forums.
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby catparty » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:59 pm

Yeah, the debate feature always feels as if it could be better utilized than it is.

Part of the problem comes from the fact that there is very little enforcement of RP norms within nations. I would like to see the moderators take a more active role in requiring players to RP in accordance with the nation they are in. For example, in a nation with a long running religious monarchy, it is out of place to have players show up and have their characters act as if they are in a liberal democracy. Conversely, if a nation is normally a secular republic, players should not be permitted to RP the instillation of a religious king without RPing a national backlash against that for a few decades. When new players show up and ignore a nation's past history in their bills, it is hard to have the motivation to do anything other than keep those kind of trolls from getting enough of a majority to do damage to a nation. Debate-RP falls on the wayside as serious players have to put less energy into being ideologically consistent, and more energy into just keeping their coalition's seatshare up.

There is also the problem of debates not being rewarded. If a player has a majority on his own, he has no reason to debate a bill. If a player is in the minority, his opponent(s) have no reason to debate a bill with them. Resolving this problem is trickier, but it is thankfully less problematic in nations with a lot of parties.
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Siggon Kristov » Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:43 pm

Catparty's comments would make one grateful for debate protocols like those that exist in Rutania, and some other nations (I think Mordusia has some as well).
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby RPC » Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:06 pm

It really depends on the players and their willingness to RP. In the past I've attached lengthy and well thought out arguments for my proposed legislation and been completely ignored. It gets rather wearisome after a while. I can scarcely be bothered to debate any more.
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Nationalis Revolutionae Frontis Selucia - Inactive


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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Syavash » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:59 pm

You're right, I think there are nation that take the game seriously and have productive arguments, which not only make the whole thing more relevant and even educational, It also expands the role playing value. I agree with you that Mordusia is such a nation, sadly they had maximum number of parties when I wanted to sign up. As long as only voting is rewarded, and most of the players only care about getting a majority, I don't think the problem will be fixed. In my nation, at least from my minimal experience, parties don't even give reason for the bills they're proposing themselves, which takes a lot of fun out of the game.
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Siggon Kristov » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Maybe you should come to Beluzia :D
Rutania isn't so bad either.

Like Mordusia, Rutania actually has party-conduct protocols which state that bills should have adequate information in the description.

In Beluzia, there is always either of 2 cases:
1) A party proposes a bill with a long description, and gets a moderate amount of comments unless everyone agrees
2) A party proposes a bill with little or no description, and the bill gets bashed and questioned for its purpose unless it's quite clear
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Afrocentric » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:56 pm

As Siggon said, Rutania has protocols in place that allow for constructive debate to take place before a bill is allowed to be voted on. I also try to incorporate some RP now and then if things get a bit stale and encourage other parties to do so since it adds depth to the game.
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Democratic Reform Party, Talmoria - Inactive
Labour Party, Saridan - Inactive
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby Syavash » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:28 pm

I checked out Beluzia yesterday and strongly considered joining it. Though I felt that I would make little difference, as I agree with most of the laws currently in place there lol. I have tried to motivate my peers to more conversation in Keymon, but if things go on like this, I will probably transfer to Beluzia or Rotania in the upcoming days. I don't know, maybe they're right and I'm wrong, maybe It's because I'm new and don't know how such games work. For instance, I proposed a bill asking for regulation on guns, and the ruling party's argument against me was that we need guns so we can kill zombies!. I don't know if it's normal or not, I haven't encountered any incidents regarding zombies when reading about history of my nation. Is it me or is it really weird?
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Re: Lack of constructive Debates

Postby catparty » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:54 pm

There are no zombies or other supernatural creatures in the game world. Hopefully, the player was referring to propaganda about zombies (3rd world Terran countries often will be superstitious and claim that their enemies/gypsies/poor people are mythological monsters of some sort). Alternatively, the player might be a troll-player, unfortunately.

Question for players in countries with established debate/bill/conduct guidelines or rules (not to be confused with national culture, which is important, but is a separate matter): How do you get the other players to go along with the conduct rules?
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