New Rules on RP

[Polites]

But who is to say what is or isn't justified? Plus a raid out of malice could easily acquire some RP justification which would allow it to circumvent the ban.

There is no realistic situation where a flood of 6 or so new parties arrive in a nation and swamp the status quo and then act in a coordinated fashion to a common goal, in that respect I see no use for nation raids that are not malicious unless you wish to permit mob justice.

Then if it has an RP justification, it should be allowed. This would force nation-raiders to actually conduct realistic RP rather than take over nations for limited personal gain. It is the same as for changes in population and culture, as long as they are done with a limited scope and with solid RP justification, they are allowed.

[soysauce]

So it's a case of if you want to nation raid because you don't like someone you just need to come up with some half-assed justification, which according to you could be because you don't like the culture that a player has created and just want to go back to the old one.

Sorry if I don't have much sympathy for that,

[Polites]

No, I agree with a nation raid against a nation that does not respect its own culture in the slightest. And a half-assed justification is not enough, you'd need solid RP for that to be accepted.

[soysauce]

No, I agree with a nation raid against a nation that does not respect its own culture in the slightest. And a half-assed justification is not enough, you'd need solid RP for that to be accepted.

What right do you have to do that though? They the players run the nation and have the right to decide what happens there, they should not be subject to mob justice for having their own way of doing things.

Anyway, since even you support solid RP justification I propose that should Nation Raiding not be 100% banned any prospective raid must be cleared by moderation prior to it taking place, I assume no-one would object to this sensible measure to prevent unjustified raids.

[Polites]

What right do you have to do that though? They the players run the nation and have the right to decide what happens there, they should not be subject to mob justice for having their own way of doing things.

Anyway, since even you support solid RP justification I propose that should Nation Raiding not be 100% banned any prospective raid must be cleared by moderation prior to it taking place, I assume no-one would object to this sensible measure to prevent unjustified raids.

By the same right that the players that ruined the nation in question established their own shitty non-culture or system of government had. If any player(s) can change things with a 2/3 majority, then a coordinated group of players doing that should be no different than players lacking coordination.

Also, if all raids are to be approved by moderation, wouldn't that drastically increase the powers of moderation? They would have the ability to approve raids they agree with and reject those they personally dislike. I'd rather suggest that nation raids be rejected if a complaint is brought against them, and if they fail to have produced a good RP justification.

[soysauce]

I don't see why anyone not intending to maliciously nation raid should fear having to submit their plans to moderation before carrying them out, perhaps this unveils your true intentions...
Moderation would always in such a situation screen nation raids and it will just save moderation time retconning illegal raids and save the party that has been raided the inconvenience, not to mention averting endless disputes into the legality of raids.

Anyway, I stand by my statement that moderation exists to uphold the rules and standards of the game, not mob justice,

[Aquinas]

OOC agreements - as EEL says, it would be a lot of work for moderation. However, I personally won't object to having such agreements sent to me, and I could check them beforehand. However, it would take time, as I wouldn't be able to make that my immediate priority. But that's just me, as soon as we have other mods, they'll have to decide that for themselves.

Yes, it would involve work for Moderation - that's a fair point. It might potentially save Moderation time and hassle too, though. As I said, I can easily imagine a poorly worked-out OOC RP agreement breaking down into an acrimonious argument - which Moderation would then get dragged into. But maybe I'm overly-focussing on this.

I don't see why anyone not intending to maliciously nation raid should fear having to submit their plans to moderation before carrying them out, perhaps this unveils your true intentions...

I don't think our friend Polites has any particularly sinister projects in mind . All he's saying is that there are instances where the phenomenon we've dubbed the "nation raid" can be positive, encouraging creativity and RP - like we've seen in Deltaria. That's a reasonable point to make. Of course, there are other cases where the effect is generally negative. This is especially so, in my opinion, where the nation raiders do not have a more long-term commitment to and vision for the nation they are disrupting.

[EEL123]

I would suggest that a those conducting a nation-raid must a) have solid RP justification and b) be able to show, on the balance of probabilities, that there was no malicious intent. I do not think that nation raids aimed at restoring a nation's culture should be exempt from those requirements - otherwise it'd be rather like vigilante justice. As far as mod permission is concerned, I reckon that this is unnecessary and excessive. If someone has an issue with it, this should be reported to moderation ex post facto. While it does cause a hell of a hullabaloo when a nation raid does occur and people object to it, the amount of hassle the necessity of approval would cause would simply not be justified.

[Polites]

I would suggest that a those conducting a nation-raid must a) have solid RP justification and b) be able to show, on the balance of probabilities, that there was no malicious intent. I do not think that nation raids aimed at restoring a nation's culture should be exempt from those requirements - otherwise it'd be rather like vigilante justice. As far as mod permission is concerned, I reckon that this is unnecessary and excessive. If someone has an issue with it, this should be reported to moderation ex post facto. While it does cause a hell of a hullabaloo when a nation raid does occur and people object to it, the amount of hassle the necessity of approval would cause would simply not be justified.

This seems reasonable.

[Fred]

I just don't see what situation could arise where the aims of a 'legitimate' nation-raid (assuming, for a moment, that such a thing exists) could not be achieved by other means.

As to malicious nation-raiding, we need to be clear about what and who are the targets for maliciousness in our criteria for this, if we're going to allow some nation-raids and disallow others.