Nyokyoolur Capacity (tm)

[Fred]

Something Farsun mentioned here in passing is the subject of nukes. We all know there's basically no point introducing them into an RP; virtually every nation on Terra claims to be capable of building them, or at least of having a store of them (with some exceptions, I'm sure).

Obviously, restricting who gets nukes in-game via RP is about as plausible as constructing a functioning global economy for Terra and getting everyone to agree it. But I was thinking that maybe, similar to or as part of OTAF, we might be able to build some consensus on the degree of nuclear capacity of nations?

Of course, in the real world, a nuke is a nuke, and setting one off would be a bad thing, but there are degrees of capacity: the US has a stockpile of over 5000 usable warheads, which are chiefly aerial-launched or missile-based; the UK has a stockpile of c.225 warheads (160 operational) which are designed to be launched from submarines; India likely maintains somewhere around 100 warheads. While the US and India develop their own weapons, the UK bought its current stockpile from the US and hasn't developed its own nukes since the '60s. India's maximum range is thought to be about 5000km; the UK's 12000km, the US is about 15,000km. The US, obviously, can strike more or less at will and has only recently said it won't use its weapons against a non-nuclear nation; the UK claims its weapons are a deterrent, and for use as a last resort; India has a no-first-use policy.

The point I'm driving at is that not all nukes are equal; not only does the capacity of the weapon system differ between countries in terms of range, but so does the purpose of the weapons system and the specific objectives of its construction, how they were acquired, etc. This is probably a good place to start thinking about nukes, IMO. Of course, economics and international relations feed into this kind of thing, too: for example a basket-case dictatorship, might reasonably have bought some (limited, and crap) missiles off another, nuclear-capable nation. But it would be very unlikely to possess the latest weaponry, and so on.

I can't seem to find any information on an RP of who first developed nukes and how they spread around Terra; that might also be something to start working on.

I'm also considering that the development of nuclear weapons requires time: perhaps we should consider an RP convention about how long a nation have been capable of developing/had the intention to develop weapons before it actually has a functioning nuke, how quickly an arsenal degrades and becomes outdated if the country stops work on its arsenal, etc.?

What do you think?

[PaleRider]

Definitely a good idea. I know Zardugal has some nukes but beyond that....perhaps we should first establish who should have nukes. I.e like who has the higher MOST and MoD budgets, recent history of stability, generally accepted as an advanced nation. Perhaps in tandem with this we could create like a Terra ranking system where we identify who is more developed than others. Like First world nations, second world, third world etc. It would be updated from time to time based on global reach, economic prowess, history of political stability, and out ward looking parties. So like Turkarali for example would be a stable second world nation but because they are rather inward looking they wouldnt rank too high on a power index.

So perhaps it would be better to have two indexs: one to measure power based on RP, cultural protocols, govt policy (both RP and In game) and budget along with history of stability and such; while the other index would be based on how developed a country is for its people.

[soysauce]

Generally I think nuclear strikes have no place in RP since they have serious long term consequences as well as the near impossibility of getting the consent of every player involved which will almost always be every player in the game and the fact that no-one would ever want to preside over a wasteland with few people left alive for 50+ IG years.

I'm not sure where you got your information but I can assure you that the British do develop their own warheads, they do not buy American warheads. Also only a minority of US Nuclear weapons have a range of 15,000 km, most are bombs limited by the range of their carrier aircraft and it's ability to evade air defenses (B-52 = No chance). There's also interception, while a Trident II missile would be nearly impossible to shoot down some over sized reverse engineered scud type thing that the North Koreans put together could be intercepted by a light breeze or a conveniently placed Aster 30, that factor should be simulated if you're looking to accurately simulate a nuclear exchange in game. Also submarine launched ICBMs would necessitate the widespread adoption of SSNs to track such submarines and sink them before they fire their missiles which further complicates things.

All in all it seems not worth the effort, ruining most RP for years and in doing so probably causing a million arguments on which nations do or do not have nukes, who can intercept what and what survives/who emerges as a victor.

[Siggon Kristov]

A combination of OTAF maintenance restrictions and my spreadsheets would determine how many nukes each country would be able to maintain.

[soysauce]

A combination of OTAF maintenance restrictions and my spreadsheets would determine how many nukes each country would be able to maintain.

You'd have to factor in a massive buy in price to get nuclear capabilities which would vary by the quality of both the warhead and the delivery system, if that could be added in then it sounds like you have a plan,

Personally I don't see it as an issue since they're never going to be used in anger, I'm thinking we just need to know who does and doesn't have them and the range of their delivery systems.

[Siggon Kristov]

A combination of OTAF maintenance restrictions and my spreadsheets would determine how many nukes each country would be able to maintain.

You'd have to factor in a massive buy in price to get nuclear capabilities.

Budgets are either a monthly or annual thing, I think.
I'd say monthly because the budget page changes monthly, and you can switch the budget any month.

[soysauce]

A combination of OTAF maintenance restrictions and my spreadsheets would determine how many nukes each country would be able to maintain.

You'd have to factor in a massive buy in price to get nuclear capabilities.

Budgets are either a monthly or annual thing, I think.
I'd say monthly because the budget page changes monthly, and you can switch the budget any month.

I don't know how Kravs exchange to GBP but you could divide the huge costs monthly by the 8+ year development period, should work fine,

[EEL123]

I would agree that nukes are not normally suitable for use in RP (although I suppose that it's not my job to second-guess someone if they voluntarily agree to get nuked). That said, it would help to establish some sort of protocols for the possession of nuclear weapons. I reckon that very few countries would have a significant and/or advanced nuclear capacity - at best, a few dozen antiquated (in IC terms) WWII-style nukes. When I was playing in Tukarali a few months back, I was developing nukes, but I made sure not to cook up anything excessively showy.

[PaleRider]

Honestly Indrala, Zardugal, Luthori, Dorvik, Lodamun,Trigunia, Solentia and maybe some other nations out there i missed should be eligible to have nukes. Honestly these nations tend to be the most developed, have an advanced economy, have high levels of military spending and/or have the RP history for it. Outside these nations w/o their help nuclear weapon tech should take say 10-20 years to develop at least (unless youre talmoria then good luck!) ....

[Fred]

I was really hoping this would more spark ideas about how a given nation is nuclear capable and what it means, and maybe to suggest some broad conventions or consensuses that the community could come to on the subject.

My issue with power protocols and spreadsheets rests on the inability to agree how to objectively quantify power in a game largely based on role-play, the impracticable workload of keeping such an index up to date, and the (IMO, unnecessary) limit such a thing would place on RP.