Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

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Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Zanz » Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:27 pm

IdioC in 'Conclusion of Inquisition' wrote:I strongly argue to Amazeroth that the Cultural Protocols also be repealed as they are impossible to enforce without a lengthy amount of time. The game engine comes first, if players want to preserve royal lines, they have the Wiki for that information.


Let's ditch em. They're not enforced (they can't be by nature. Cultural protocols should protect the language of titles, should require party names translated into the language etc., but can't because of the 'game-comes-first' rule), and when they were created they were crappy as it was. We have Zulu nations next to Celtic nations next to English nations next to Jelbek nations next to Terra's 2375 America clones. Let's forget the whole thing altogether and let ourselves play again, why not. Make people defend their crap or let it die, because if nobody cares enough to fight for it why let it be mandated anyway? And as I said, it's hardly "protected" when moderation is all that's upholding something, anyway. English is always allowed, so who cares if Jelbania is protected, the EMPIRE OF JELBANIA will always be allowed.

Let's cut the charade. Let's let players play and quit it with this middle ground nonsense. I'll cite the Zulu stuff Aquinas is trying to do now in Ikradon, with no malice intended in my statement, I use it only as an example:

For thousands of in game years Ikradon has been a pit of nothingness. Boredom. Socialism. Those are what come to mind with Ikradon. There is a discussion on Ikradonian culture introduced ages ago with all sorts of nonsense thrown in but who really cares, because they're all dead and gone now.

Now, Aquinas is bored and believes Terra needs a sub-Saharan African nation (it does. Should have been Talmoria but that was screwed up ages ago too). So he checks the Cultural Protocols to try and figure out where is protected and where isn't. Naturally the Protocol thread is of almost no use. The index in the front lists what, 8 nations as protected? How many more have applied and been OK'd for protection? Almost everywhere! But to ask Amazeroth to update the list is tedious and overly time consuming, just as IdioC pointed out in my opening quote, and it's pointless to update it anyway: Gaduridos is a "Caribbean-esque Spanish-Italian" (now the "Federal Union of Gaduridos"), Wantuni is an "Oppressed Christian Greek majority governed by Arab minority owing to political upheaval" (now the "Hegemonic Kalopian Kingdom" under everyone's favorites the Maratonite dynasty, famous in Lourenne and who the heck knows where else), and until Dynastia rescued Jelbania it was English, and so on and so on.

And so the thread is useless, but Aquinas is thorough and checks nations for posted cultural protocols before he enters! Good! He's found a spot, Ikradon, with no passed Protocols. "There isn't a single African-themed nation in the whole of Terra, and with so many nations Cultural Protocolled up, there aren't many places where an African culture can be introduced." So Ikradon it is! It's open and he's unopposed and with the snap of a finger a Cultural Protocol is passed giving us the first African nation in Terra.

But this is how all the nations were protocolled in the first place! One player decides something needs to happen and the right moment hits and there you have it. And thus the nonsensical tapestry we get. Zulu next to English next to German next to Gaellic.

So let's quit pretending it makes sense. I like culturally diverse nations as much as the next guy and I will protect the nations I think work by traveling there and protecting them when I need to. But stop pretending Jelbania is "protected" when LordStephen is in power, and stop entrenching nonsensical protocols that encourage people like Aquinas to put their Zulu right in the middle of Terra's Europe (I know you don't agree with that statement Aquinas, but I firmly believe there should be some regional consistency, and if the rest of Artania is Germanic/Northern European, a Zulu nation there doesn't make sense). If other nations weren't protected, if we ditched the ideas of Cultural Protocols altogether, rational people like Aquinas could bring real improvement to places that are as of now off limits because somebody had the bright idea to make Talmoria Pakistani.
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Dynastia » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:30 pm

I was planning to move to Beitenyu and maliciously raid you because you're a massive asshole, but now that you've posted this I'd really like to head into Ikradon and fix that up somewhat. Unfortunately I really do like the idea of a subsaharan African nation (too bad they're filthy Zulu scum, though. I wouldn't mind getting my Mande on). Is there anywhere an African nation could be more sensibly introduced, before I maliciously raid Ikradon and deliberately ruin all of Aquinas' changes out of personal malice and hatred for Aquinas?

If there's nowhere else that black folks won't clash with their neighbours, perhaps we could take Tukarali, and spend a few months inviting Ikradonic settlers to come in force and genocide all the natives and resettle the place, then pass CPs, abandon Tukarali and hit Ikradon, and have the Dundorfian Germans gradually force out all the Ikradonic Zulus? You up for that, Aquinas?
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Zongxian » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:34 pm

Dynastia wrote:I was planning to move to Beitenyu and maliciously raid you because you're a massive asshole, but now that you've posted this I'd really like to head into Ikradon and fix that up somewhat. Unfortunately I really do like the idea of a subsaharan African nation (too bad they're filthy Zulu scum, though. I wouldn't mind getting my Mande on). Is there anywhere an African nation could be more sensibly introduced, before I maliciously raid Ikradon and deliberately ruin all of Aquinas' changes out of personal malice and hatred for Aquinas?

If there's nowhere else that black folks won't clash with their neighbours, perhaps we could take Tukarali, and spend a few months inviting Ikradonic settlers to come in force and genocide all the natives and resettle the place, then pass CPs, abandon Tukarali and hit Ikradon, and have the Dundorfian Germans gradually force out all the Ikradonic Zulus? You up for that, Aquinas?


Tukarali has a culture, and despite the current players' overwhelming attachment to Portuguese, the nation is a Singapore/Indonesian type nation with a Mongolian-like minority.
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Dynastia » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:43 pm

Looks like a cheap expy of Brazil to me. If Cultural Protocols doesn't stop people from turning your Singaporean/Indonesian/Mongolian nation into Brazil without any explanation whatsoever, why can't I lead a Bantu migration there? I'll at least make two or three halfhearted RP posts explaining the change.

Zanz is right ; if CP's aren't being upholded, they should be abandoned altogether. I know the second I leave Jelbania it'll silently revert to the generic anglophonic "Empire of Jelbania", so why should anyone else ever bother working within the cultural protocols?
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Zongxian » Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:56 pm

Dynastia wrote:Looks like a cheap expy of Brazil to me. If Cultural Protocols doesn't stop people from turning your Singaporean/Indonesian/Mongolian nation into Brazil without any explanation whatsoever, why can't I lead a Bantu migration there? I'll at least make two or three halfhearted RP posts explaining the change.

Zanz is right ; if CP's aren't being upholded, they should be abandoned altogether. I know the second I leave Jelbania it'll silently revert to a generic anglophonic Empire with no explanation whatsoever, so why should anyone else ever bother working within the cultural protocols?


Before the current players took a full reliance on Portuguese, there was some inspiration taken from Brazil in terms of defining the Tukarese people and the idea of Tukarali as a multiethnic society. The Tukarese peoples, similar to Brazilians, were divided into sub-groups. The largest and most significant are mixed-race, but with significant "Gao-Showa" influence; unlike Brazil where these peoples are mixed race of black and latino. The Brazilian influence in Tukarali as well is no mistake.

Also, in the process of developing the nation I was exploring ideas for what language to use as "Modern Tukarese," to serve as a universal language for the nation. I cannot recall for what reasons, but I to leave abruptly at some point in this stage of development and Portuguese ended up unintentionally sticking; whereas, looking at the overall culture of Tukarali, the language (Modern Tukarese) should be Bahasa Indonesia. If not for my continued work with the Kyo, I've thought on a number of occasions about returning to Tukarali to continue the unfinished development on overall Tukarese culture; and I've been content to let the nation be since, while the current players are so Portuguese-centric, they haven't attempted to do anything drastic.
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Farsun » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:49 pm

I think the problem lays entirely with what Zanz said, they are not enforced. They are left there and when they are trampled upon very few people say anything, if anything at all. If someone came to Dranland and attempted to introduce a Hungarian speaking nation, there would be an uproar. If someone did that to Kalistan, people would not even pay attention. That failure rests with the player base as a whole. I regularly search through nations, especially on Artania, to see what cultures they are developing.

When I saw that Aquinas was attempting to introduce a sub-Saharan nation in the middle of Artania, I almost choked. It's just unrealistic, even for a game where National Socialism and Communism are regular political ideologies that are still viable despite their mass atrocities in-game. A Zulu nation spawning from no where, beside the nation that develop Luthori and Dundorfian? Close to a nation that developed its own language according to the games linguistic lore.
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby PaleRider » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:55 pm

I tried to convince Aquinas to make it a Portuguese style nation since we lack one of those....HOWEVER i do side slightly with Zanz here in that we need a re-think the cultural protocols thing. Personally i do favor keeping them as it adds diversity to the game but i feel we are becoming too over obsessed with being realist to the smallest detail. I think we need to relax on certain things and to be more lenient. We need to do a reorganization of cultures and perhaps instead of my full retcon idea we could step up the cultural retcons to make it flow better. I'm glad Zardugal finally got its culture sorted out and i feel we need to accept the changes players made in later years. For better or worse Turkali is a Brazil-ish spin off and Gaduridos is a mix of what, Caribbean Italian mix? so lets work within certain bounds and make the culture of Terra flourish!
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby EEL123 » Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:57 pm

I also believe that there should be more consistency, although the solution may be to impose regional (instead of national) protocols instead of scrapping them altogether. Blatantly ridiculous and jarring incongruities (sorry Aquinas) would not be permitted, but there'd be more scope for RPing the natural flow of people between different countries. Perhaps we could formulate regional protocols, and give people, say, thirty IG years to transition between their current protocols and the new regional ones (if necessary).
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Afrocentric » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:07 pm

The game needs more African cultures. No offense, but there are to many Anglophone nations. I'd have no issue with Ikradon becoming Zulu provided Aqaunis does a gradual shift of the demographics and RPs accordingly.

In fact, I would assume there are a small percentage of black people in Ikradon considering the country's proximity to Aloria which had a large proportion of them which were slaves according to the Wiki.

BTW Artania is not exclusively based on Europe. Malivia has been historically played as a RL clone of India and there was a time when Aloria was culturally based on the USA.
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Re: Let's ditch Cultural Protocols

Postby Farsun » Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:18 pm

Oh, that makes sense Afro! It does, a small portion of blacks who were from Aloria all the sudden explode into a massive majority, overtaking the progenitor of Dutch in-game with an extensive history tied to Dundorf that would render it useless? I'm sorry, I have a problem with that. Malivia also is a case where it went from being a German nation into something totally unrealistic for the region, that is prior to the cultural protocols however.
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