Goodbye

[Polites]

Thing is, he didn't really comply in the complying sense. He would stall and delay until he got told to do such and such a billion times. ICly he always used German names and titles that were removed 50 IC years ago. When asked why he would always ignore the question. With the Cultural Protocols he said "I don't want this" and when asked what he wanted he never answered.

He is painting a very positive picture of himself while he was impossible to work with IC and OOC. Always angry, only "no", etc. And just to make it clear, I did not discuss with Polites that I would come to Selucia to change things with him. I spent some time in Hulstria before deciding that wasn't for me. After a short hiatus I joined Selucia because I like ancient Rome.

I confirm that there has been no communication between me and Kubrick before he joined Selucia, and Aquinas can check that with his Mod powers. I also confirm that Leonardo never replied as to what he disliked about the Cultural Protocols, as the communication between him and Aquinas that he posted here also shows. I PMd him as the draft was in the debate stage asking for his input and he never replied; messaged him again while the vote was ongoing and told him I wouldn't submit them to Mod approval until he provided his feedback, and again there was no reply. To this day I honestly don't which part of the CP pissed him off.

So the issue here is not only non-compliance, or partial and grudging compliance with CP and related rules. It is also a matter of Leonardo being constantly uncooperative and negative towards the other players in Selucia, giving everyone a hard time. Either way, Aquinas did mention that he leaves this issue open to review by Amazeroth, when (or if) he comes back. Until then there are indeed a couple of Germanophone nations out there.

Still seems like a right hash of things was made when it could've been handled better. That's unfortunate.

Well as Aquinas mentioned above, he was messaged by Moderation a few months ago, and he's not been particularly compliant. His continued stay in Selucia would have continued to just piss everyone off, including himself.

[SelucianCrusader]

Well as Aquinas mentioned above, he was messaged by Moderation a few months ago, and he's not been particularly compliant. His continued stay in Selucia would have continued to just piss everyone off, including himself.

^this.

[Siggon Kristov]

Surely Moderation isn't taking it upon themselves to change players' attitudes now against their will...

That's one thing I feared with Aquinas, but I really do think he's being fair in this situation.

[Leonardo222]

I am not painting a positive picture of me. You are which came into Selucia and were the changing factors.

This message was sent by Polites to me on the boiling point, when the CP was launched:

OOC: Hey JJ, Polites here. I'm the guy who wrote the recent CP update for Selucia, and I can confirm that the 7% Seluco-Barmenians in the CP is a wider category than the ones expelled from Barmenia, as it includes people of mixed ethnic heritage in Selucia that have been in the nation for way longer than the expulsion of Felinists.

This message was sent by the party Polites controlled in Baremnia when he passed the Edict of Expulsion in order to simulate the influx of foreign people into Selucia, shortly before he joined Selucia.

I also confirm that Leonardo never replied as to what he disliked about the Cultural Protocols, as the communication between him and Aquinas that he posted here also shows. I PMd him as the draft was in the debate stage asking for his input and he never replied; messaged him again while the vote was ongoing and told him I wouldn't submit them to Mod approval until he provided his feedback, and again there was no reply. To this day I honestly don't which part of the CP pissed him off.

Seriously, look at this link: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4374&start=370 it is the link to the moderation section of the forum where you discusses with me the points which I critized your CP. I think it went over three pages.Did you forget that?
Did you also forget that I pushed for the deletion of the old CP?

Well as Aquinas mentioned above, he was messaged by Moderation a few months ago, and he's not been particularly compliant. His continued stay in Selucia would have continued to just piss everyone off, including himself.

Wrong! I was massedged at the end of may and it was only about my party name. I answered at once:

Reagards,

time after time again the players of Selucia have said that the KLP is a " Dundorfian faction".
As Dundorfian is german, there is no problem.

Regards,

After this message I got no response for weeks, then the ultimatum from Aquinas came immidiately. And where does anyone take the right that I have to like you. We never exchanged any strong languange. But of course I am angry about someone switching nations in order to build nations like he wants.

So the issue here is not only non-compliance, or partial and grudging compliance with CP and related rules. It is also a matter of Leonardo being constantly uncooperative and negative towards the other players in Selucia, giving everyone a hard time. Either way, Aquinas did mention that he leaves this issue open to review by Amazeroth, when (or if) he comes back. Until then there are indeed a couple of Germanophone nations out there.

Compliance is not issue. Not a single german refrence is left. And I am as you can see from the messages very positive but not you. I made attempts through rp action but I was always rebuffed. And normally if someone is not sure or leaves open sth. the things are left the same for the time being and not changed, meaning that I could have continued until Amzeroth decides.

To write it again: There were considerable attempts to come together at the time I was deactivated!

[LukasV]

Just reactivate the guy and let him play, albeit with a final warning that if he tries to put German crap back in Selucia or does some stupid offensive shit, he's gone for good, pending a possible appeal, etc etc. Done. Can we move on now?

[Polites]

Just reactivate the guy and let him play, albeit with a final warning that if he tries to put German crap back in Selucia or does some stupid offensive shit, he's gone for good, pending a possible appeal, etc etc. Done. Can we move on now?

I'd support that.

[Aquinas]

Leonardo/John John,

Posting another player's private messages on the forum is generally bad etiquette and can lead to sanctions. I understand you are impassioned; as it happens, in the past I have been impassioned too as a player, and done the same thing.

I appreciate to some extent I might seem "fair game" for what you did there, because I am the Moderator who removed you from Selucia. Your posting of Polites' private messages is something I regard as more serious, but even so, I am not going to impose a sanction. Please do not post private messages again though, or I most definitely will. If you want to complain about a private message or present it as evidence, you may take it to Moderation privately, but not publicly.

I can confirm the message exchanges between us you quoted from early May look accurate, although there is a little confusion in the way you've laid them out in places, with some of the comments you made to me looking like they are comments I made to you.

Let me clarify that the message exchange we had in early May took place before I was a Moderator. I was a player in Dankuk with an interest in Selucia because I was about to move there. As you can see from the messages, I was trying to be helpful to you because I could see there were problems going on. At that time, by the way, I had no idea I was going to become a Moderator or that I would be dealing with you as a Moderator over Selucia.

Now a few things to say in your favour:

- You point out, correctly, that there were some more positive and constructive aspects to your recent playing in Selucia.

- You did eventually comply with the game rules concerning Selucia's Cultural Protocols, although even by your own admission you resisted doing so for as long as you thought you could get away with it.

- After being deactivated you changed your party description criticising Moderation, which I am grateful to you for doing.

You seem to suggest Selucia could have returned to amiability if you had not been removed from there. Let me say you are entitled to that view and you could be right; I do not claim perfect judgement and certainly do not possess clairvoyance. What I appeal to you to consider, in due fairness to me, is that on the evidence I saw, I was not as confident of that as you are - and nor were players there. After I informed you I was considering lifting you out of Selucia because of your issues, you responded by replacing your party description with a text that made it overwhelmingly clear how much you resented being expected to obey the rules of the game, and by implication, your co-players who expected you to follow those rules. Rules which every other player in Selucia had been respecting but which you brazenly flouted.

I made the call that I had no real option but to bring the situation to a conclusion, because it was not acceptable and if I left you in Selucia, things were unlikely to get better. You are welcome to dissent from that interpretation, but that is how I saw it.

You had a lot of time to sort your issues out and there was considerable patience shown to you. In the end, time ran out for you. I am sorry for that, but there you go. Right now I genuinely think both you and the other players in Selucia deserve a break from all this aggravation.

From my point of view, I hope you will return to Particracy and that you will have a much better playing experience the next time around. I would also be open to letting you return to Selucia once everything has cooled off, we've had a chat and I'm confident the same things won't happen again.

And good luck with the student council. I wonder...how much does that remind you of Particracy?

[Leonardo222]

Please do not post private messages again though, or I most definitely will. If you want to complain about a private message or present it as evidence, you may take it to Moderation privately, but not publicly.

I of course apologize for that, but I am capable to apologize and recognize when I am wrong. I did take to you certain points privately but so far I have not got any reply from you, via pm, exepct the deactivation.

You seem to suggest Selucia could have returned to amiability if you had not been removed from there. Let me say you are entitled to that view and you could be right; I do not claim perfect judgement and certainly do not possess clairvoyance. What I appeal to you to consider, in due fairness to me, is that on the evidence I saw, I was not as confident of that as you are - and nor were players there. After I informed you I was considering lifting you out of Selucia because of your issues, you responded by replacing your party description with a text that made it overwhelmingly clear how much you resented being expected to obey the rules of the game, and by implication, your co-players who expected you to follow those rules. Rules which every other player in Selucia had been respecting but which you brazenly flouted.

I got a question: Do you always obey rules always with full backing? And since you are a passionate player you surely understand that changing the work of 3 !! years within a week or two weeks or in this case 24 hours is neither easy nor possible.

Let me clarify that the message exchange we had in early May took place before I was a Moderator. I was a player in Dankuk with an interest in Selucia because I was about to move there. As you can see from the messages, I was trying to be helpful to you because I could see there were problems going on. At that time, by the way, I had no idea I was going to become a Moderator or that I would be dealing with you as a Moderator over Selucia.

However you used the evidence gained from it against me. I was not heared again by you in your position as moderator. I think it should always be that before deactivate a long-term player both sides should be heared.

From my point of view, I hope you will return to Particracy and that you will have a much better playing experience the next time around. I would also be open to letting you return to Selucia once everything has cooled off, we've had a chat and I'm confident the same things won't happen again.

I was the first player and so far only player to use the words "cooling-off period" in Selucia. I suggested it, and since then Kubrick and Polites and myself did not have any contact. Now we were establishing the next step: reconciliation. That this cannot happen over night should be clear. But we are grown men and are capable to move on.
I hope you are as capable to do so.

And good luck with the student council. I wonder...how much does that remind you of Particracy?

We always make compromises and I hope that now you are able too, to make compromises. Since already Polites supports such a solution and I myself made a lot of concessions, I would promise the keep obeying the CP or in the future provide a proper RP backing of any changes.I would be indeed a role model for the rp solution in Selucia in order to eliminate the aggrevation.

I made the call that I had no real option but to bring the situation to a conclusion, because it was not acceptable and if I left you in Selucia, things were unlikely to get better. You are welcome to dissent from that interpretation, but that is how I saw it.

See above, please.

[Siggon Kristov]

reconciliation

More Ian Smith...

[Leonardo222]

More Ian Smith.

No, Nelson Mandela You surely know the Truth and reconciliation commission?
By the way, of course I always will choose Ian Smith over Robert Mugabe.

But we can discuss about that in another section of the forum, if you want