Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Martinulus » Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:28 pm

Polites wrote:I only very recently gained leadership in the Church, so I never RPd it until recently. But from what I can tell, the governance of the SPC was in the past done in a consensual manner. Martin became a sort of unofficial leader of the Church and invariably RPd the Arch-Patriarch whenever such RP was needed, and there never seemed to be any objection (not even when he IC declared characters belonging to SelCru, the original creator of the org, guilty of heresy).

For the record, I never declared SelCru's characters specifically heretical or pronounced excommunication against them. All I did was having Arch-Patriarch Justus III declare Hosio-Felinism a heresy ex cathedra, but he never sanctioned the heretics (I always assumed the orthodox hierarchs in the Selucian and Barmenian Provinces would take care of that, I guess). The only Archipatriarchal sanction I ever handed down at the head of the SPC was the continuous assertion that the TPC was first not a Church and, further down the line, not Hosian, and that the TPC's Sacrifices were invalid because of it (witness the fact that Father Vaclav Ivaneyev had to be re-baptised when he became SPC, even though the Sacrifice of Water is supposed to be universal).
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Martinulus » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:00 am

To shamelessly hijack this thread, there is one thing we agreed a while ago that ought to be changed about the Aurorian Creed in order for it to make sense, but never got round to it. It is pretty well-established that since the Creed of the Hosioi, mainstream Hosianism has believed Eliyahu was pre-existent with God, not a creature (this is the reason Ordism is considered a heresy, if I'm not mistaken). Also, since the Aurorian Churches all agree on a binitarian view of the Godhead, Eliyahu can't have been a creature, as he is also God. However, the precise pneumatological theology of Hosianism and its various denominations was not fully fleshed out when I wrote the Aurorian Creed, which in its current version clearly states "Created with Terra before all ages" as opposed to "3. Begotten of God, in man incarnate through the Virgin Sarahae," in the (OOCly later, but ICly prior) Creed of the Hosioi.

I would therefore like to retcon a word about the Creed of Auroria to bring it into accordance with the account of the theology of the Council as it developed, from "Qui factus est ante omnia saecula cum Terris" to "Qui conceptus est de Deo ante omnia saecula" (who was begotten of God before all ages).

This has got me thinking whether we ought not to consider whether the entire part of the Aurorian Creed that concerns Elijah should not more strongly reflect the binitarianism that was later established by Polites as the main reason the non-Aurorian Churches could not accept the Council. Could be something like this:

And we believe in one Lord, Eliyahu Hosios,
Pure and Holy Spirit of God,
Begotten of God before all ages,
Who is in God and of God and from God,
And of like substance,
Announced through prophesy,
Holy Word of God,
through the virgin Sarahea in man incarnate,
Who is light to our world,
True servant of the one true God,


Et in unum Dominum, Eliam Pium,
Purum et Sanctum Spiritum Dei,
Qui conceptus est de Deo ante omnia saecula,
In Deum et de Deo et per Deum
Et consubstantialem.

Et annunciatus per prophetas,
Sanctum Verbum Dei,
Ex Sarahaea Virgine in hominem incarnatus,
Qui est lumen terrae nobis,
Verus servus veri Dei.
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Polites » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:45 pm

I fully agree with your suggested amendment to the Creed. I was also thinking that, since the mainstream Aurorian view on the Spirit seems to be akin to semi-Arian homoiousian binitarianism, some form of the homoiousian formula ("like God in all respects") could be included, something like the definition adopted by the Council of Sirmium (hómoion katà pánta).

Also, I don't think the Spirit should be begotten but rather proceed from God. If he is begotten, then why not call him Son?
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Martinulus » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:05 am

I'll make the retcon then, I just need to find a Latin word that equates to "of like substance" instead of "of one substance". I was thinking "cosubstantialem" (as in "sharing in the substance").

There is one problem with "processus", which is that it suggests that God was pre-existent whereas Eliyahu was not, whereas the two always existed together as one godhead.
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Amazeroth » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:41 pm

Martinulus wrote:I'll make the retcon then, I just need to find a Latin word that equates to "of like substance" instead of "of one substance". I was thinking "cosubstantialem" (as in "sharing in the substance").

There is one problem with "processus", which is that it suggests that God was pre-existent whereas Eliyahu was not, whereas the two always existed together as one godhead.


I'm no Latin expert, but as far as I know "consubstantialem" is used for "of the same substance" in the Nicean Creed, which sounds more like "of one substance" than "of like substance". To convey the difference, you'll probably have to use something like "conformis in substantia" or something.

(Also, it probably should be"In Deo et de Deo et per Deum", if I remember correctly, "in deum" would mean "at God", not "in God".)
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Polites » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:24 am

Amazeroth wrote:
Martinulus wrote:I'll make the retcon then, I just need to find a Latin word that equates to "of like substance" instead of "of one substance". I was thinking "cosubstantialem" (as in "sharing in the substance").

There is one problem with "processus", which is that it suggests that God was pre-existent whereas Eliyahu was not, whereas the two always existed together as one godhead.


I'm no Latin expert, but as far as I know "consubstantialem" is used for "of the same substance" in the Nicean Creed, which sounds more like "of one substance" than "of like substance". To convey the difference, you'll probably have to use something like "conformis in substantia" or something.

(Also, it probably should be"In Deo et de Deo et per Deum", if I remember correctly, "in deum" would mean "at God", not "in God".)


Consubstantialis is indeed the Latin translation of homoousios. For "of like substance" I suggest "simili substantia" (in the Ablative). Another possibility is "de substantia Dei" (from the substance of God), or maybe "Deo similis" (like God; similis+Dative).

In Deum means something like "towards God" or "against God"; in + Accusative refers to movement. Amaz is right and it should be "in Deo".

If you use "ante omnia saecula" then "processus" would not imply a denial of pre-existence. Alternatively you could follow the RL Nicene Creed and use the present tense "Qui ex Deo procedit" (who proceeds from God).
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Martinulus » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:47 am

And we believe in one Lord, Eliyahu Hosios,
Pure and Holy Spirit of God,
Proceeding from God before all ages,
Who is in God and of God and from God,
In His whole Substance like unto God.

Announced through prophesy,
Holy Word of God,
through the virgin Sarahea in man incarnate,
Who is light to our world,
True servant of the one true God,


Et in unum Dominum, Eliam Pium,
Purum et Sanctum Spiritum Dei,
Qui processus est de Deo ante omnia saecula,
In Deo et de Deo et per Deum
In totae substantiae Deo similis

Et annunciatus per prophetas,
Sanctum Verbum Dei,
Ex Sarahaea Virgine in hominem incarnatus,
Qui est lumen terrae nobis,
Verus servus veri Dei.


Perhaps we could go even further by stressing that he was uncreated, unborn and that He never began (and thereby further stressing His unity with God):

And we believe in one Lord, Eliyahu Hosios,
Pure and Holy Spirit of God,
Proceeding from God before all ages,
Not created, but himself the Creator,
Not born, but himself the Father of All,
Not begun, but himself the Beginning.
Who is in God and of God and from God,
In His whole Substance like unto God.

Announced through prophesy,
Holy Word of God,
through the virgin Sarahea in man incarnate,
Who is light to our world,
True servant of the one true God,


Et in unum Dominum, Eliam Pium,
Purum et Sanctum Spiritum Dei,
Qui processus est de Deo ante omnia saecula,
Non factum sed Factor,
Non genitum sed Pater Omnium,
Non inceptum sed Incipium,
In Deo et de Deo et per Deum
In totae substantiae Deo similis

Annunciatus per prophetas,
Sanctum Verbum Dei,
Ex Sarahaea Virgine in hominem incarnatus,
Qui est lumen terrae nobis,
Verus servus veri Dei.
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Polites » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:12 am

Looks good, and I like the proposed addition.
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Re: Discussion on the consequences of the Hosian Council

Postby Martinulus » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:29 am

Another quick suggestion. Perhaps instead of copy-pasting the Aurorian Creed into every single Hosian page on the wiki we ought to create either a template or a separate page for it. I think there must be about a dozen versions of the Aurorian Creed on the wiki right now (I took the liberty of changing the one on the Council of Auroria page which you hadn't yet changed).
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