Lodamun's Currency

[Farsun]

If you're going to continue to promote your own country have the world's currency, I'm going to kindly ask you resign from the discussion.

Anyone can claim that they have the world's currency but OOC and ICly its been RP'd as the LOD, hands down. Most people here know that and that's what a lot of us are saying. If some country wants to go and create a financial institution and use something else that's fine. I don't think you understand d that Siggon, so voting in this more or less useless poll which is nonbinding, doesn't mean they can't RP lmao

[Aquinas]

This is a reminder that Particracy members are expected to treat each other with respect and courtesy. Publicly asking players to withdraw from a thread is, understandably, likely to be received as rude. Please watch the tone of this discussion.

By the way, for anyone who missed it, here is the currently proposed explanation about the LOD for the game's FAQ page:

Q. Does Terra have currencies and exchange rates?

A. The economic aspect to the game has not been deeply developed, but each nation does have a currency and some of these currencies have been assigned names. For more information and details of the suggested exchange rates, see http://classic.particracy.net/rates.php .

The LOD or Lodamun Dollar is the strongest currency and has traditionally been used as the unit of measurement for international economic comparisons.

[albatrosinus]

I am not trying to promote the Beluz as an international currency. My first post was a joke and my second one was only using it as an example. I am talking about the Dundorfian Mark but I've never played in Dundorf. I would also prefer an international currency that is not used as a national currency (for example the Karav, even if I don't particularly like this name - at least it's not called the Stanton...)

Anyway I think that the new FAQ explanation is very good.

[Farsun]

I think a non-specific name international currency would be best, it would be common agreement with Moderation ascent and we'll be fine.

[Zongxian]

I don't care much for financial RP, but I do want to raise the issue of regional/common currencies and how they play into the idea of some international monetary standard for exchange.

Dankuk, as a member of the Mikokuzin Union, adopted the Bu. And I assume Mikuni-Harusutoria is also using the currency since they are the ones that proposed it (I could be wrong). Regardless of what currency is used as an international standard, exactly how can/would multinational common currencies be assessed for their value? I feel like this would be determined either by RP consensus or by the creation of some kind of equation that averages together the value of each nation's native currency to create a value for the common currency.

[Farsun]

That's one of the problems even with the current currencies, it doesn't matter if a country is RP'd as a strong, international economy with lots of lucrative contracts and investments, their currency never changes.

[Siggon Kristov]

I'm talking about financial RP in the context of RP-ing a financial institution that publishes statistics. It doesn't give any power, and players won't be allowed to change the rates that are already stated on the rates page.

Fair enough, if it is RPed like that.

And remember that such RP takes a lot of work.

I never said Egelion couldn't be hit by sanctions. I'm not getting what point you're making, here. I'm not saying that Egelion should be the default and official financial centre of Terra.

I was following your apparent thoughts on this. You've suggested or at least agreed to the idea that Lodamun cannot be the premier financial centre anymore because it's been hit by sanctions repeatedly. And of course, some new players will show up and the number of countries which have ratified the Egelion treaty may fall. If we rely on RP or realism here, the system will be just chaotic.

I don't see what chaos can result from the financial centre changing. IRL, the USA's currency hasn't been the world trading currency for 300 years. I was in Lodamun for more than 300 years.

Firstly... Did RP establish this status, or an OOC imposition which currently makes no sense IC?
Secondly... yes, it would lose that status because people would ignore what financial institutions in Lodamun have to say. I'm not talking about whether Lodamun is an economic power or not. Lodamun's economy has remained in the top 5 for centuries, without being in debt. The point is that its currency hasn't been popular. Its government and its institutions have not been popular, either.

To be honest, I don't know how it was established however a number of longtime players have told me in the past that Lodamun is (financially) the in-game equivalent of the USA. Now a lot of things in the game are based on what the RL equivalent is. For example, defence industries, religion and natural resources like oil. Why would that not apply to economics/finances?

IRL, the USA's currency hasn't been the world trading currency for 300 years. I was in Lodamun for more than 300 years. I don't see why an OOC imposition must apply in such a case. Countries don't remain economic powers or financial centres permanently IRL. If I'm in Beluzia and I'm putting effort into RPing a financial institution, and players in Lodamun aren't doing anything, I don't see why I must be forced to use LOD.

I was told by at least 2 players that I'm obligated to do it in LOD instead, and that I'm breaking rules otherwise. Does this make much sense? This is the source of my problem with the OOC imposition.

Yes, it makes no sense but still it would be better to have one recognised international currency. This would'should not mean that anyone would be restricted in quoting anything in the Telar, Dolgar, Rupee if they want to.

In the context of what we're discussing, you're contradicting yourself. If you vote "Yes" on the poll, you're really saying that persons should be restricted from quoting international comparative statistics in a currency of their choice, and that they are obligated to quote it in LOD.

I don't know enough about economics/finance to be able to fully explain why.

By the way, the US Dollar in the real world is not the strongest currency in the real world, so painting it as a parallel to the LOD is something that I don't see the point of.

I know that (it's not my reason for supporting the LOD to remain considered as the official international currency) and I also know that it is the dominant currency in international financial transactions and recognised as such. That's the point I was trying to make. There has always been dominant currencies in the world used for global financial transactions and such. I'm just saying that I prefer that it remains the LOD because I'm used to it. There's no reason why other currencies can't be used, but LOD supremacy should probably continue to be recognised not because of its strength.

You're used to it? So you've been going around doing/publishing comparative statistics in LOD? I haven't seen you doing that. Being accustomed to it is not a reasonable argument either, IMHO. I'm accustomed to 3 currencies IRL, despite their rapid change in value over the past few years and I could easily get accustomed to 2 more without it being a big deal. Getting used to a few static currencies shouldn't be hard. I don't see why I must be forced to publish my comparative statistics in LOD just because it's what you are accustomed to. You can do it in LOD yourself, if you want it in LOD. I'm the one doing the work and putting the effort. If you want it in LOD, you can do the calculations yourself, or convert my publications into LOD. Don't you think that is fair?

And again, it's not the actual numbers that matter, but their relation to each other.

If not, could we please just keep the LOD for simplicity's sake ?

Does it really matter what we publish statistics in? Do we really need to "keep" any one currency as the permanent official international currency? What does it matter whether I publish information in BEL or LOD? Wouldn't the rankings and relative values be the same? I really don't get what it simplifies or doesn't simplify. I still haven't been convinced of the necessity of the OOC imposition that the LOD must be the official international currency.

I meant to say convenience (and familiarity) not simplicity. My bad that's what comes from having English as a third language. The convenience here is for quoting figures in RP whether it's forum posts or lists on the wiki. I think it kind of matters that we publish in the same currency as I pointed earlier with the 500 billion Telar example. As far as I'm aware, players (who bother) largely quote figures in the LOD. Perhaps it's unrealistic, but God knows it's only one of dozens of things that are unrealistic in PT and in my view, much less so than having to asking for someone's consent before invading them, or that we've had the same superpowers forever etc.

I'm not saying that players shouldn't recognise the LOD, or that they shouldn't be allowed to quote statistics in LOD. I'm asking why I must be forced to use LOD instead of another currency like BEL. If I publish statistics much more often than they do, I think persons would get more accustomed to BEL.

You might as well provide more options to your poll (if that's possible) I support LOD supremacy not because of its strength.

Looking now, I agree that maybe I should not have said "because it is the strongest currency" but I don't think we should have more options than yes and no. I still don't think you understand what we are discussing here:

I want to make clear what we're discussing here. Voting "Yes" means that you think it should be against the rules for a player to set up an IC financial institution and publish statistics in a currency of his/her choice.

If you don't mind, I wish we could stick to discussing this. This is the issue.

Well, it is absurd to have it fixed to a single country. IRL the USD is now recognized as a "world currency" but this was not always the case, and maybe tomorrow the world-leading currency might be the yuan, the ruble, the South Korean won, the Brazilian real, the Swedish crown, the Angolan kwanza or whatever...

I think that if the players consider the Hobrazian Crown, the Beluz or the Dundorfian Mark to be the world money, there should be no problem with that.

Agreed, but such a country needs to put both OOC effort and IC effort into being worthy of that status.

If you're going to continue to promote your own country have the world's currency, I'm going to kindly ask you resign from the discussion.

I agree that such promotions should not occur in this thread. This is not about which country should be the financial/economic centre; it is about whether Lodamun should have this as a protected status.

Anyone can claim that they have the world's currency but OOC and ICly its been RP'd as the LOD, hands down. Most people here know that and that's what a lot of us are saying.

Yeah, 4 of you, compared to 10 agreeing with me.

If some country wants to go and create a financial institution and use something else that's fine.

Well that is not what you and Afrocentric told me in the past, and the reason I started this discussion is what you told me in the past, and what you implied very recently.

I don't think you understand d that Siggon, so voting in this more or less useless poll which is nonbinding, doesn't mean they can't RP lmao

The poll may be non-binding, but it can influence Moderation decision, which is binding. I'm not saying that players can/should not publish statistics in LOD. I think you and Reddy think that I'm saying that Moderation should ban us from publishing statistics in LOD, and recognise a single new currency, but I'm not. I'm not the one saying that players should use or not use a particular currency. I'm saying that I should be able to use what I want, and that I shouldn't be told that it's against the rules.

I am not trying to promote the Beluz as an international currency. My first post was a joke and my second one was only using it as an example.

You can make a thread for jokes in the Off-Topic section of the forum.

I would also prefer an international currency that is not used as a national currency (for example the Karav, even if I don't particularly like this name - at least it's not called the Stanton...)

The KRV is not a static currency like the game's national currencies. It's value, in relation to other countries, changes based on economic conditions of those countries.

I think a non-specific name international currency would be best, it would be common agreement with Moderation ascent and we'll be fine.

A neutral static currency is pointless. It's just double conversion. It would mean converting everything to a static currency, like LOD, and then converting it to this reserve currency.

I don't care much for financial RP, but I do want to raise the issue of regional/common currencies and how they play into the idea of some international monetary standard for exchange.

Dankuk, as a member of the Mikokuzin Union, adopted the Bu. And I assume Mikuni-Harusutoria is also using the currency since they are the ones that proposed it (I could be wrong). Regardless of what currency is used as an international standard, exactly how can/would multinational common currencies be assessed for their value? I feel like this would be determined either by RP consensus or by the creation of some kind of equation that averages together the value of each nation's native currency to create a value for the common currency.

I spoke to Liu Che about this when I just came out with the spreadsheets, and I think I said it somewhere on the forum, that I would not mind adding a new currency to my spreadsheets. If it's a static currency, just peg it to the value of one of the currencies in the union, like say 1 Bu is 1000 DRA or something. Or yes, you could average the value of currencies in the union and just use that value, and I will make it based on that.

That's one of the problems even with the current currencies, it doesn't matter if a country is RP'd as a strong, international economy with lots of lucrative contracts and investments, their currency never changes.

China and South Korea have pretty shitty currencies and they still have strong economies. A strong currency does not necessarily mean an amazing economy, and an amazing economy does not necessarily mean a strong currency. I have recognised this problem too, which is why I created the KRV. It's a dynamic currency. There are factors which strengthen or weaken currencies against the KRV. It was mainly used to prevent countries from "cheating" by running an unrealistic budget deficit to get a high GDP. With the static currencies, you can easily get a super high GDP by running a super high budget deficit.

[Reddy]

I want to make clear what we're discussing here. Voting "Yes" means that you think it should be against the rules for a player to set up an IC financial institution and publish statistics in a currency of his/her choice.

If you don't mind, I wish we could stick to discussing this. This is the issue.

You are the one who's diverting from the issue. The name of the thread and the poll question have nothing to do with what you claim in your bold letters. You can't name the thread and then claim that the topic is another thing. Besides all these topics are linked. You really should have offered more options for the poll because you are acting as this is a straightforward issue between the unflexible who hate RP based institutions and the flexible who want to let RP bloom. Few of these RP determined initiatives are even taken seriously in the long term thus IMO it is better to have have such things more or less set in stone.

In the context of what we're discussing, you're contradicting yourself. If you vote "Yes" on the poll, you're really saying that persons should be restricted from quoting international comparative statistics in a currency of their choice, and that they are obligated to quote it in LOD.

You can't just set the discussion agenda in the middle of the thread. That would be like attempting to restrict the follow of the debate. You can't just trying to control the flow of the debate once people express views disagreeing with yours. But well enjoy the rest of the debate with those who are willing to accept your rigid limits.

[Siggon Kristov]

I want to make clear what we're discussing here. Voting "Yes" means that you think it should be against the rules for a player to set up an IC financial institution and publish statistics in a currency of his/her choice.

If you don't mind, I wish we could stick to discussing this. This is the issue.

You are the one who's diverting from the issue. The name of the thread and the poll question have nothing to do with what you claim in your bold letters. You can't name the thread and then claim that the topic is another thing.

Alright, I see it wasn't made clear in my original post and I apologise for that, but that is what I mean when I'm asking if it should be the "default and official" international currency. Anyone who reads this thread in a vacuum would agree with you, and I couldn't blame you or them for your interpretation because it wasn't made clear in this thread itself, but I can prove to you that it's what I have meant this whole time. I can show you where all this is coming from, and why I started this thread and this poll.

I started it because it is being implied that it is against the rules for someone to RP a financial institution and quote statistics in a currency that is not LOD. I can show you where this was implied.

Besides all these topics are linked. You really should have offered more options for the poll because you are acting as this is a straightforward issue between the unflexible who hate RP based institutions and the flexible who want to let RP bloom.
I'm not discrediting the advantages of using the highest-valued or a single currency as a long-term currency for the publication of statistics. I don't mind discussing that, but I want to get this issue - about whether players should be able to choose what they post statistics in - out of the way.

Few of these RP determined initiatives are even taken seriously in the long term thus IMO it is better to have have such things more or less set in stone.

The only one I've seen so far is mine, until this new treaty popped up from Egelion. If you unhide all the pages from my spreadsheet, you'll see that it was taken seriously. If you see messages between EEL and I, as well as my offer to Liu Che about Subjective Remarks, you'll see that I was willing to develop the spreadsheet further to work Econ Protocols by having little sidenotes to give value to statistics (like "Strong Economy" or "Weak Economy" or so on).

Also, anyone can shoot me a message and ask for any particular statistics. I don't even need to be the one to give it. Anyone who has a computer that can handle the task can just do it, because the spreadsheet is something that can just be updated with the push of a button. The effort I put in over the course of a few weeks was with the intention of continuity. It's not too hard for me to publish stats again, once I see the demand for it. I responded quite quickly when Liu Che started that thread asking for Terra's GDP. I could respond quite quickly to any similar request, to save people the trouble of doing dozens of calculations.

In the context of what we're discussing, you're contradicting yourself. If you vote "Yes" on the poll, you're really saying that persons should be restricted from quoting international comparative statistics in a currency of their choice, and that they are obligated to quote it in LOD.

You can't just set the discussion agenda in the middle of the thread. That would be like attempting to restrict the follow of the debate. You can't just trying to control the flow of the debate once people express views disagreeing with yours. But well enjoy the rest of the debate with those who are willing to accept your rigid limits.

Again, I see it wasn't made clear in my original post and I apologise for that. I get that we disagree on some things and I wouldn't mind discussing those further, but I'm asking you now, and all you need to do is answer: Do you think that Moderation should prevent players from publishing statistics in currencies of their choice? That is really what all this boils down to, as that is what all this is coming from, and I can prove it to you.

[Reddy]

The only one I've seen so far is mine, until this new treaty popped up from Egelion. If you unhide all the pages from my spreadsheet, you'll see that it was taken seriously

I agree wholly and I myself used your spreadsheets a lot. That's how I generally determine the economic conditions in a country. I roleplayed Jelbania as an impoverished country because the spreadsheets suggested that it was like that. It will be the same for Deltaria.

If the roleplayer's as committed as you are with the spreadsheets, it would be OK to have an RP based institution however I can think of a number of examples of RP based institutions (I'm not just referring to financial/economic ones) which had been created and swiftly neglected. Usually it doesn't matter much because of they are little consequence.

Do you think that Moderation should prevent players from publishing statistics in currencies of their choice?

No, Moderation should not prevent that from happening. However I think it would be better to have one currency (formally or informally) used for (at least) simple RP related transactions such as the example of an arms deal or even the new AIIB . It doesn't have to be the LOD (personally I prefer that it remains as the LOD)