How should Cultural Protocols be enforced?

[Aquinas]

The Cultural Protocols document you are referencing was originally written in 2009 and could do with some updating and clarifications. As you have noticed, for example, it suggests Cultural Protocols are not binding upon character names, when of course they are.

You cite this part of the document:

Specifically prohibited are actions to rename the nation or cities to something that is clearly not in keeping with the national identity. Changing a nation or city name is acceptable as long as it within the cultural context.

However, the sentence before that reads:

Players are free to not participate the cultural workings of a nation however they should respect the actions of the players that do.

To my understanding, Moderation has long interpreted this to mean that the use of English for party names, nation names and constitutional titles might possibly mean not participating in the cultural workings of a nation, which is legal. But it does not necessarily mean doing "something that is clearly not in keeping with the national identity", which would be considered illegal. Changing the names in a Georgian nation to Finnish without any acceptable explanation, for example, would not be in keeping with its national identity. English, however, can be considered acceptably neutral.

[Farsun]

The CPs were always understood that if you wanted to change titles that they would be provided in the native language with an English translation. Parties didn't need to be in the native language but it needed to be provided somewhere or in the party description.

That's how we've operated and they were updated past 2009 because I updated them during my tenure as a Moderator.

[TheNewGuy]

Changing the names in a Georgian nation to Finnish without any acceptable explanation, for example, would not be in keeping with its national identity. English, however, can be considered acceptably neutral.

And this is where I just argue we scrap the silly things, then. We made Cultural Protocols for one reason - nations were getting raided by noobs, either knowingly or not, who could not stand the thought of a nation that didn't have a Senate and a House of Representative, or that had anything other than a Prime Minister/President, or that dared to use a non-English language for its nation name. This guy in Hobrazia is doing exactly the thing that protocols were designed to protect against, and this "English is neutral" argument once again allows the destruction of a unique culture in PT. Finnish is no more ridiculous than English in a nation that for IRL years has been Georgian.

Edit: It doesn't matter if the CP page was written in 2001, 2009, or today. It's the document we have to work with.

[Polites]

I agree that using English for IG variables other than character names should not be considered a breach of Cultural Protocols. For instance, if I won't be able to figure out how to translate "Free People's State of Cildania" into Phoenician, renaming the nation with that name in English ought not be seen as an indication that the Luthori language or culture has even a minor presence in Cildania. The use of English is more a matter of convenience rather than a direct violation of the CPs, especially since English remains the official language of the game.

[Aquinas]

An exchange on the Cultural Protocols thread was becoming more of a general discussion over how Cultural Protocols should be enforced, so I have split off some of the posts and made a new thread here. One of Zanz's posts got deleted, not because there was anything wrong with it but because of a blunder made by me during the process of splitting the posts. Sorry for that, Zanz.

I am very aware that the way Cultural Protocols are enforced has been an issue for some of you, and has been so for some time. As you can see by the name of this thread, I am relaxed about discussion on the whole subject, although as with other discussions, please keep the contributions courteous.

So, how would you like Moderation to enforce the Cultural Protocols? Please be as specific and detailed as you can about exactly what you think the Cultural Protocols should expect from players and what should be considered a breach of them.

Amazeroth & I are not promising anything but we do care and we are listening.

[Aquinas]

After fiddling about with the "Back" button on my browser for a while, I dug up Zanz's post, which I accidentally deleted. Imagine this post is at the beginning of this thread, where it ought to have been. Apologies to Zanz & everyone else for the confusion.

Thanks for that, Zanz. So far as I can see, the player is not in breach of the Cultural Protocol conventions. His Georgian Cabinet minister names show he already acknowledges Hobrazia's Georgian character. He is permitted to have an English nation name, party name, constitutional titles, national anthem and national motto. Those are not considered to represent changes to a nation's culture.

I did find the changing of the legislature to "National Diet" a little odd, but since there is a minor German influence in Hobrazia, I have not decided to press that issue.

The passage of a Cultural Identity Bill is not binding on players as far as character names and game mechanics is concerned.

OK, cool, so National Diet is perfectly fine. Awesome.

Specifically prohibited are actions to rename the nation or cities to something that is clearly not in keeping with the national identity. Changing a nation or city name is acceptable as long as it within the cultural context.

Seems to me the thinking of Amaz (and you following Amaz) here is incorrect, based on this wording. No ethnic Luthorans exist in Hobrazia. Changing the nation name to English is "clearly not in keeping with the national identity." It is not "within the cultural context" for an isolate-speaking country to abandon it out of nowhere.

[Farsun]

Cultural protocols should be enforced. How about we start that? The recent breakdown in the ability to enforce them has lead to where we are right now with this conflict. We developed the Cultural Protocols as a means to protect unqiue cultures and established cultures in game and we've failed now twice to do that. (Jakania and Hobrazia)

CPs were built and made to have people work on nations, build a culture and be able to leave and let that culture remain in place while the politics changed. That's entirely what they're meant for. What we have? Is something totally different

My idea and concept of the CPs when I was pushing for them was that nations would be able to pass a CP and work within that culture. Meaning they would name their characters, cities, organizations, agenices, government structures and so on and so forth within that culture. I didn't care if they were Socialist or Nationalist they would live within that culture.

We've seen amazing work done thanks to those protocols. Polites has done tremendous work through the PT game world establishing unqiue and interesting cultures. What is happening now is essentially destroying that and the work of many others.

Hobrazia is the precise case for this. We should indeed allow English party names, that's fine and gives people a quick look at the politics of the nation but if viable they SHOULD provide the party name in the language of the nation. Players should not be able to ignore the culture of the nation, if they want to ignore it, why even play there? What is drawing them there? We have a dozen nations that still use generic names and English titles and what not, why not there?

Players need to be mandated to use the culture of the nation for titles, government structures, characters and everything else. For instance, Hobrazia the player has violated the CPs. Flat out, he has. He should not be allowed to ignore the culture of the nation with ethnic Luthoran names "because". It doesn't work that way.

We need to not sit on our hands and let this slide. CPs are hereto drive players to the game and allow them to make an interesting mix of cultures that we don't see in the real world or have exposure to in the real world.

In sum: Characters, national sub-divisions, government structure and titles should all be in the native language with English translations in parenthesis. That's a simple and effective way to make sure everyone is happy. Political parties names should be in the native language but if that isn't feasible then English will suffice with a translation in the party description. We did this for when countries would change the name of their national title and we were mandated (and still are AFAIK) to put (Dorvik) or (Darnussia/Narikton) there so why not for CPs too?

Also that last part about being able to "ignore" CPs was the single dumbest thing to come out of CPs and totally invalidates them. What is the point when a player can just come in and destroy players hard work? That line needs immediate removal or otherwise you can scrap the whole concept and idea of CPs.

I know you won't do anything without Amaz Aquinas but if you keep this up with these CPs, I can garuntee you that you're going to face a veyer very upset and bitter veteran player group that you do not want to agitate further. Myself very very heavily included in that. We asked you to become a progress maker here and we're asking you to do that now. While some see this as a game, its gone far beyond that when you added people into the mix. It's a creative writing project to a lot of us.

[TheNewGuy]

I agree that using English for IG variables other than character names should not be considered a breach of Cultural Protocols. For instance, if I won't be able to figure out how to translate "Free People's State of Cildania" into Phoenician, renaming the nation with that name in English ought not be seen as an indication that the Luthori language or culture has even a minor presence in Cildania. The use of English is more a matter of convenience rather than a direct violation of the CPs, especially since English remains the official language of the game.

I have to say, I'm surprised and (honestly) a bit disappointed to find that we disagree here. Perhaps you might be able to explain to me what value you see in CPs in general, then? Do you disagree with my assessment on why CPs were created in the first place? Are you really happy to allow English as a matter of convenience in all circumstances, except (for some reason) for character names? Why even force it in character names, then? If it's the Republic of Hobrazia, it's got a National Diet, it's got an English anthem, why make characters stick to Georgian names? It's just immersion breaking, in my opinion, and if that's the case, we might as well just allow Mr. John Smith in the Republic of Hobrazia... At least it would make sense.

[Polites]

I agree that using English for IG variables other than character names should not be considered a breach of Cultural Protocols. For instance, if I won't be able to figure out how to translate "Free People's State of Cildania" into Phoenician, renaming the nation with that name in English ought not be seen as an indication that the Luthori language or culture has even a minor presence in Cildania. The use of English is more a matter of convenience rather than a direct violation of the CPs, especially since English remains the official language of the game.

I have to say, I'm surprised and (honestly) a bit disappointed to find that we disagree here. Perhaps you might be able to explain to me what value you see in CPs in general, then? Do you disagree with my assessment on why CPs were created in the first place? Are you really happy to allow English as a matter of convenience in all circumstances, except (for some reason) for character names? Why even force it in character names, then? If it's the Republic of Hobrazia, it's got a National Diet, it's got an English anthem, why make characters stick to Georgian names? It's just immersion breaking, in my opinion, and if that's the case, we might as well just allow Mr. John Smith in the Republic of Hobrazia... At least it would make sense.

There is a difference though between using English and any other language; all non-English languages are tied to a particular culture IG, while English has both an IC and OOC role, the latter as the official language for debates, forum posts, party descriptions, and all that. Using English for nation and institution names I see as slightly better than Finnish, for the simple reason that you can't use Finnish except for nations with a Finnish culture. If Hobrazia is known as Hobratsuri Respublika IG, it will still be referred to as the "Republic of Hobrazia" in forum posts. Same argument goes for character names; while one could easily argue that "Republic of Hobrazia" is a translation of convenience, you can't say the same about Mr. John Smith.

And ofc I don't disagree with your assessment on the role and function of CPs. IG variables should be in the nation's language(s) as much as possible, but I just don't see a rule violation in this particular instance.

[Polites]

Also, if you consider that the use of English in any instance is an indication of an Anglophone culture, then the modification of the recognized culture of Jakania (with which I strongly disagree, btw) is perfectly legitimate, since English titles have in fact been used in Jakania for a long time. For that matter, they have been used in every nation on Terra, with no exception; does that mean that all Culturally Active, Dormant, & Void nations should be recognized by Moderation as having an Anglo-Saxon culture?