Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Aquinas » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Fair enough, I've changed the description to "English with Arab minority, historical Greco-Roman influence".
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Doc » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:05 am

As per a discussion on another thread

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6366&start=10#p91173

I write to ask that our description in the CP index (if this is what it is to be called) be changed. The accepted CP, which we need to add percentages to, says the following about Kalistani culture.
Kalistan is a very multi-ethnic/multi-racial place, and has been for a long time. The majority of the people describe their ethnic background as simply "Kaistani" because they are of heavily mixed and very complex descent. This is because Kalistan was originally settled by the Kalii Tribes. (Kalistan is taken from Kaliistantum, "Land of the Tribes" To this group long ago (before game history starts) various exile groups, refugees, pirates and so forth fled, settled or hid in Kalistan, and were welcomed into and intermarried into the various Kallii tribes. The various tribes themselves also intermarried.


As a result, there is no pure "Hindustani-esque" culture in Kalistan. The culture of the original tribes has been mixed and remixed and remixed and added to and conquered over and over again for millennia. That is merely one element in a huge bunch of other elements. We also have Dutch, Italian, German, Hispanic, Chinese, Japanese, Eastern European and Central African influences... None of those have ever been RPed as being subsumed to a Hindustani Cultural group.

The closest thing we have to a Hindustani element in Kalistan is the RPed Imperial Family, and that is only interpolated (by the main mover of Kalistan toward being Hindustani culture) as Hindustani, because the CP is silent on precisely what Anantanese language actually is:
"Anantanese: Spoken primarily on Ananto, the 3rd major language of Kalistan. Very few people speak it as a first language. It is primarily the official language of the traditional Imperial Court, the Emperor, and so forth. It is rarely spoken at all on the mainland. Ancient Anantanese had it's own alphabet. Modern Anantanese uses a modified form of the Kalistani Alphabet."


But this is actually not correct to think of Anantanese as "Hindustani-esque"- The Kalii were the tribes on the mainland, and they probably spoke Hindustani/Punjabi in prehistory, but they were conquered by the culturally distinct Anantanese. Otherwise, this is what the currently existing CP says about the languages of Kalistan, as RPed and approved by Moderation:
"Languages: There are 22 official languages in Kalistan, and many unofficial ones, though almost everyone speaks one or both of only two related ones: Vrassan and Odufar. These are symbolized by English with American vocabulary and British pronuonciation for Vrassan, vice-versa for Odufar. Vrassan is spoken primarily in Vrassa, Ananto, and nothern Neveras, while Odufar is spoken primarily in Odufaray, Suldanor and southern Neveras."
Nothing in this suggests a Hindustani cultural designation.

Finally, the update discussion seems to be built off of the half sentence phrase:

A very multi-ethnic/multi-racial place"; "Hindustani Indian" the largest group


I suppose that this was taken from the existing CP, specifically:
The main groups, their appearance, closest earth culture and names are listed below, in approximately descending order:

Kalkalli: Hindustani Indian: From the original Kalii Tribes


This does not suggest that Kalkalli is, as a pure and distinct ethnic group, the plurality, but that most people identify to some degree as Kalkalii. But as a bove, that population is mixed, and almost everyone now calls their culture Kalistani.

This description of Kalistan as a Hindustani Indian country is driving the efforts of one Party in particular, who is now the second Party in Kalistan, to completely revise the CP's around Hindustan. The player's Party is titled Punjabi. As far as I can tell, Hindustani culture is being retconned in Kalistan, which essentially means that all of Kalistan's RPed history is being ignored in favor of a new interpretation of history which supports the notion that we are now and have always been Terra's version of Hindustan. The single comment by the RFP, Kalistan's other long serving Party is

I see no reason to completely abandon the history and culture created previously.

I will oppose constantly and will make sure that it is kept and/or restored

The groups you all want to rp are in fact the most common group in Kalistan, the Kalii. I can give you more details if you want.

But the current Kalistani cultural protocols are inseparable from the current and recent history of Kalistan.


This suggests to me that the planned changes were going through without any regard for Kalistani RP history. Since then, Kalistan's name, national motto, national flag, and national variables have been changed to reflect a Hindustani culture, the inexplicable rise of which was explained as "As Luthori and Lodamun have declined from their positions of pre-eminence, the aspects in Kalistan culture which resembled those countries have also declined to the point where a long dead cultural trait which, according to our CP has been mixed and intermarried and invaded and homogenized into culture known as "Kalistani" has suddenly regained prominence, to the point where within 100 years, it has become the dominant language of government and society, necessitating the changing of our country as well as our motto and national sport, and name of our President and name of our Districts and everything else. And by the say, since it was retconned, it has always been that way and none of the people who have been playing in Kalistan for more than a dozen centuries just weren't aware of it at the time.

I think this is an error. The error itself is reflected in the phrase which identifies us as Hindustani. We have never RPed Hindustani culture in Kalistan. So I would ask that that description of our country be revised. It is simple unrealistic from a RP perspective.

I will propose a separate CP update which is more in line with our country's RP history, rather than the desire of one or two players to make Kalistan a northern Indian country regardless of our country's lived experience. In the meanwhile, I would simply say that Kalistan is a multi-ethnic state, which speaks primarily English, but celebrates cultural heritage of dozens of cultures from around the world." or something like that. Hindustani is not the cultural majority in Kalistan in the currently accepted CP, and I will do my part to ensure that it is not in the updated one either.
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Aquinas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:47 pm

I think part of the reason for the confusion here is that Kalistan's Cultural Protocols are not explicit - or at least come across to some of us as not being explicit! - about what Kalistan's cultural background is. As a long-standing Kalistan player, you naturally have a clear idea of what you believe the cultural background to be. Pentalarc is in the same boat as well. But for others of us...well, do you see that maybe we need a bit more help? :) To be fair, when I inserted the description in the Cultural Protocols Index and Polites drew up his first draft of Cultural Protocols for Kalistan, neither you nor pentalarc (the long-standing players) were around to offer us advice/feedback. We're all only doing our best to make sense of the situation, really.

This is why we have introduced the requirement for percentage breakdowns of the cultural and religious demographics of each nation. It helps to communicate the cultural background more clearly and prevent (or at least limit) these misunderstandings.

What I really hope will now happen is that you, pentalarc and Polites will be able to agree on a new set of Cultural Protocols which respects Kalistan's history but conforms with the new rules on providing clearer details.

Once you have achieved that, I think you would all then be in a better position to advise Moderation on what you would like Kalistan's description in the Cultural Protocols Index to be. You can do that here on this thread. Although remember the description needs to be very short, like all the others. You will also then be in a better position to advise us about what Kalistan's details should be for the Nation Renaming Guide.
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Doc » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:00 pm

I think part of the reason for the confusion here is that Kalistan's Cultural Protocols are not explicit - or at least come across to some of us as not being explicit! - about what Kalistan's cultural background is. As a long-standing Kalistan player, you naturally have a clear idea of what you believe the cultural background to be. Pentalarc is in the same boat as well. But for others of us...well, do you see that maybe we need a bit more help? :)


Fair enough. I am hoping to clarify just this particular issue in-country, without making any radical changes, until we can come up with a CP which keeps what we have already, but also provides Moderation with the information which will be helpful to them.

This is why we have introduced the requirement for percentage breakdowns of the cultural and religious demographics of each nation. It helps to communicate the cultural background more clearly and prevent (or at least limit) these misunderstandings.


So I am clear on this point- Do you require a real world equivalent for each of the various cultures? Pentalarc noted in his CP which was approved that most Kalistani citizens, given the complex mixture of ancestries, simply identify as "Kalistani", which leave open the door for some residual identification with the original tribes of which there appear to be 9, but not a majority for all of them or any one of them. We have to work out what "Kalistani" is in RL equivalent, but as for the CP, I have proposed (though it has not yet been debated or accepted,) that the ethnic breakdown of Kalistan look something like this:

"Cultural Breakdown of Kalistan
Vrassan- 50%
Odufar- 48%
Anantanese- 1%
Other 1%"

According to Language spoken, and geographic locator. Would you all need there to be a description of what "Vrassan" is or "Odufar" is, or will something like this, were it to pass, suffice for the time being?

What I really hope will now happen is that you, pentalarc and Polites will be able to agree on a new set of Cultural Protocols which respects Kalistan's history but conforms with the new rules on providing clearer details.


This is my hope as well. To this end, I am proposing a "good enough" CP for now, and then a much richer description to follow once we meet Moderation's deadline. I think we can all work together to ensure that all of our interests and hopes for Kalistan are acknowledged and worked in to the final document.

You will also then be in a better position to advise us about what Kalistan's details should be for the Nation Renaming Guide.


I hope there is this much attention paid when we eventually return to the question of macro economics for Terran countries. ;) I didn't have much success in generating interest in that discussion a few months ago.
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Aquinas » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:52 pm

We would need a description of all of the entries in the cultural breakdown, yes. The obligation in the Rules is:

6.1.3 Cultural Protocols bills must provide descriptions of the cultures, languages and religions which would be easy for a new player to understand (eg. "Dundorfian = German").


No in-game culture is going to be the exact equivalent of a real-life culture, because the history etc. is going to be different. However, when explaining in-game cultures to new players, it is generally helpful to make some reference to real-life cultures, so you should probably do this in the Cultural Protocols.

Doc wrote:I hope there is this much attention paid when we eventually return to the question of macro economics for Terran countries. ;) I didn't have much success in generating interest in that discussion a few months ago.


There was another discussion a while back, which might interest you.
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Doc » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:27 am

It appears that we will be describing ethnicity in Kalistan as more like a "cultural quantum" meaning that the percentages actually represent the relative amount of influence those older cultures have in current Kalistani culture, of which there is one. So, in the current proposal, for example, they have Kali (which is described as Hindustani) as representing 57% of the culture influence on Modern Kalistani culture- something like 57% of our traditions and cultural heritage comes to us from the original Kali traditions of the folks who inhabited our territory. The remaining 43% were brought in by a lot of folks who arrived both from the sea and overland, as refugees, pirates, traders and invaders. Consequently, the way it is described, and will likely be in the CP is that there is but one Kalistani culture, which is influenced by all these cultures. This allows us to fulfill the requirements of culture-protection, as well as keep our somewhat chaotic and vibrant cultural arrangement as reflected in our RPed History in tact.

Its looking promising that we were able to find an acceptable compromise which incorporated much of the work which had been done with a protection and acknowledgement of Kalistan's RPed history.

Now- I need to ask. We intend to have the CP requirements met by the Oct 1 deadline, along with some additional information which helps flesh it out a bit. But will we be able to revisit the issue again after the initial requirements are met, to further flesh the matter out? We want to meet the deadline, and so will not make huge changes to the existing CP, but the others have done a lot of work that I agree should be in there as well, but we need to have time to debate it and wordsmith it a bit. So will we be able to amend it after October 1?
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Amazeroth » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:32 am

As long as you are actively working on the protocols, we would gladly extend the deadline for Kalistan - we wouldn't want you to have to do with anything unfinished just because of that. How does November 1st sound to you?
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Doc » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:08 pm

I think the October 1 deadline should be fine for us sending a finished document to the Moderators. We have the required information going through preliminary votes right now (we have enough votes currently to pass the material) and everything else will be matters of clarification and elaboration. If we can get that done before October 1, we have more than enough time to do so. but otherwise, we will have a document which complies with the requirements by Oct 1 anyhow.

Thank you for the consideration at any rate. I think the compromises we have come up with so far satisfy all involved.
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Polites » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:32 pm

In light of the newly accepted Cultural Protocols, I think Cildania's short description should now be "Maghrebi with Levantine influences", and the primary languages in the Nation Renaming Guide should be amended to include Berber, Latin, and Arabic in addition to Phoenician (and the Hebrew substitute).
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Re: Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index

Postby Aquinas » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:41 pm

Polites wrote:In light of the newly accepted Cultural Protocols, I think Cildania's short description should now be "Maghrebi with Levantine influences", and the primary languages in the Nation Renaming Guide should be amended to include Berber, Latin, and Arabic in addition to Phoenician (and the Hebrew substitute).


Done.
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