EEL is returning

Talk and plan things about the game with other players.

EEL is returning

Postby EEL Mk2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:54 am

Those who knew me as "EEL123" may recall that I was last here about nine months ago when I decided that I have "nothing further to contribute to this community". But during those months this polsim, and more importantly this community, has never been too distant from my thoughts. Given that I'm approaching the one-year run-up to my school-leaving exams, it will be impossible for me to be as active as I was in my previous 'incarnation', but I have nevertheless decided to return.

As you may have noted, I have decided to start a new account and adopt a (somewhat) different name. That's because I think that it's important for me to signal a new start of sorts. Let me explain.

For me, ideologically, a lot has changed. I arrived here in mid-2012 as a barely pubescent kid with largely undefined political views, but a certain libertarian streak quickly became the primary basis for my political views. During my absence, however, I have concluded that libertarianism can no longer be reconciled with my capacity for rational judgement. (Yes, it was a bitter pill to swallow.) Obviously, libertarianism makes sense if liberty is the lynchpin of your worldview, but I have been unable to find any rational basis to support the view that liberty should occupy such a privileged position. Furthermore, while some of you would associate me with fairly uncompromising views, I have never been the sort who would advocate the wholesale abolition of social security, taxation etc. Of course, this does mean that I have always accepted that there must be exceptions to the general rule of liberty. Only recently, however, have I realised the implication of this: if there are exceptions where liberty must be balanced against other principles, there must be a higher principle which determines which balance is most appropriated. Lately, I have become partial to the idea of utilitarianism because I feel that only utilitarianism can be justified from first principles (I won't go into it here). I would never suggest, though, that liberty is unimportant; far from it. There is an innate human instinct to be in control of one's life, to seek one's own ends through one's own means, and that means that liberty has to be one of the highest forms of utility, but to say that it is the only, or overwhelmingly pre-eminent, form of utility is absurd. As a consequence I no longer consider myself a libertarian, even if my views do retain a libertarian element to them. Obviously that means that many of the positions for which I have advocated in the past no longer find favour from me.

Secondly, some of you will know that I had a tendency to be abrasive - in fact plain obnoxious at times - in my dealings with other members of this community. Although I assure you that never have I done anything here out of spite or malice, I acknowledge that the way I have interacted with some of you has not reflected well on me personally or contributed to this community. In my defence, there is only so much social and emotional maturity you can expect from a 14-year-old kid, but nonetheless I do regret it. I want to draw a line under all that. Accordingly I return with hopefully a little more wisdom, a little more humility and an aspiration, at the very least, not to piss too many of you off. That is not to say that I do not expect our discussions here to be frank, robust and often passionate, and nor does it mean that I will not, occasionally, get carried away and say something I regret. Not everyone can be like Aquinas (congrats on being appointed to the mod team, by the way), but I will do my best.

Now, let's get down to business. What have I missed? And, given that I haven't chosen a country yet, where's the good stuff happening?
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby Siggon Kristov » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:22 am

Welcome back. I'm really glad to see you again.

EEL Mk2 wrote:Secondly, some of you will know that I had a tendency to be abrasive - in fact plain obnoxious at times - in my dealings with other members of this community. Although I assure you that never have I done anything here out of spite or malice, I acknowledge that the way I have interacted with some of you has not reflected well on me personally or contributed to this community. In my defence, there is only so much social and emotional maturity you can expect from a 14-year-old kid, but nonetheless I do regret it. I want to draw a line under all that. Accordingly I return with hopefully a little more wisdom, a little more humility and an aspiration, at the very least, not to piss too many of you off. That is not to say that I do not expect our discussions here to be frank, robust and often passionate, and nor does it mean that I will not, occasionally, get carried away and say something I regret.

Your ability to be frank and straightforward were actually things that I liked about you. You seemed like quite a rational person, despite our differing views. Trust me, I doubt too many people disliked you or wanted you to leave. Your behaviour definitely didn't leave a bad impression on me.

EEL Mk2 wrote:And, given that I haven't chosen a country yet, where's the good stuff happening?

Ibutho is a one-party state. Each player roleplays a bloc/caucus/faction in the party instead of his/her own party.
Check out my latest Particracy project, and feel free to discuss it in the forums.
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby TheNewGuy » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:46 am

EEL Mk2 wrote:I have concluded that libertarianism can no longer be reconciled with my capacity for rational judgement.


Having gone through a similar political transformation to what you've just described, and now almost entirely repulsed by my own "libertarian phase," I often wonder what it is that makes some of us come to the realization that apparently both you and I came to, and what, contrarily, is different for the people who continue their belief in libertarianism into their 20s and beyond. To me the growth "out" of libertarianism seemed to happen so naturally as to just seem commonsense, it felt like aging - but clearly that is not the case, as several people I know have stuck to their beliefs in spite of aging.

Anyway, glad to hear you've grown, and I look forward to hearing from you in the coming future. One of the most discouraging things on this forum for me (having been a part of this demographic myself) is the sheer number of 13-18 year olds we seem to draw, who believe so powerfully in something that they can hear nothing else, and who do not know how to listen to their own innate reason because they're being drowned out by extremist platitudes. It's always very encouraging to watch people come to terms with the world and with themselves, so welcome back.
I once was full of promise. Oops.
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby Farsun » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:43 am

Welcome back!
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby EEL Mk2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:09 am

I appreciate your kind words. It's good to be back.

TheNewGuy wrote:I often wonder what it is that makes some of us come to the realization that apparently both you and I came to, and what, contrarily, is different for the people who continue their belief in libertarianism into their 20s and beyond.
I think that the appeal of libertarianism is that it is very straightforward. The concept of liberty is not one that takes a huge amount of brainpower to get your head around (at least the concept of negative liberty, the sort that libertarians like), and if you accept that liberty is the highest political ends to the exclusion of other ends, then your views on specific policy matters can be arrived at in a fairly simple and linear manner. Other ideologies tend to be a bit more complex.

TheNewGuy wrote:To me the growth "out" of libertarianism seemed to happen so naturally as to just seem commonsense
Well, you had it easy then. I'm a pretty disembodied sort of person, if you will, and for me physical and even social attributes don't really form a major part of my self-concept, which is almost entirely intellectual and political. So it was pretty shattering. It certainly didn't feel natural. I suppose that I'm lucky that I'm not predisposed to being depressive; otherwise I suspect things would have gotten really bad.

As far as "common sense" is concerned though, I have to say that I'm not a fan of common sense. For me, what "common sense" denotes is little more than intuition, gut feeling, and I have never believed that one should form political opinions based on one's intuitions. I've always thought that one must be willing to hold opinions that one is, intuitively and emotionally, deeply resistant towards, so long as they make logical sense. Certainly many of the things I used to believe in and vocally defend here did not, deep down, sit easily with me (the right of business owners to discriminate, for example). And even now, I'm a bit too emotionally invested in libertarianism not to wish that it was feasible, even if cognitively I'm resigned to the fact that it's not.
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby TheNewGuy » Sun Jul 26, 2015 6:23 am

EEL Mk2 wrote:As far as "common sense" is concerned though, I have to say that I'm not a fan of common sense. For me, what "common sense" denotes is little more than intuition, gut feeling, and I have never believed that one should form political opinions based on one's intuitions. I've always thought that one must be willing to hold opinions that one is, intuitively and emotionally, deeply resistant towards, so long as they make logical sense. Certainly many of the things I used to believe in and vocally defend here did not, deep down, sit easily with me (the right of business owners to discriminate, for example). And even now, I'm a bit too emotionally invested in libertarianism not to wish that it was feasible, even if cognitively I'm resigned to the fact that it's not.


I suppose I misspoke, or perhaps that we are speaking of the same thing using different language. I developed an ability to entertain and hold opinions which didn't make immediate sense to me, or which were distant from my experience (in other words, I meant what you're saying). I used "common sense" to describe it only to imply that it happened in a remarkably natural manner for me. As I matured, I found myself more capable of putting myself in others' shoes, and of approaching the world evenly - rather than emotionally. That I call my development of "common sense" or perhaps "humanity," but call it what you will.
I once was full of promise. Oops.
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby Captain-Socialist » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:33 am

EEL Mk2 wrote:Now, let's get down to business. What have I missed? And, given that I haven't chosen a country yet, where's the good stuff happening?


Mikuni-Hulstira (as it is now) is a feudal regime in which most of the economy is controlled by the royal family, who "lease" the means of production to other families. It also has a new language, Hulstro-Mikun, which is basically German-Japanese.

I had a number of people involved at one point but most seem to have left, though Polities should be coming over once the religious war in Majatra role-play fully winds down. A rival House, representing those who wish to contain the centralised state and increase their own share in the economy (through lassie-farie), is sourly needed. The monarchy is elective, so you too can be Emperor (I think the problem before was that the Imperial family was too obviously in power, so everyone else's roleplay was a little restrained).

See Lonely-Nations for more info.
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby EEL Mk2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:33 am

Mikuni-Hulstria definitely sounds interesting. I will certainly think about it during the next couple of days.
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby Aquinas » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:03 am

Like others, I'm really pleased to see you return, EEL. As you may have noticed, you've been missed! You've contributed a great deal to RP in this game. You've also - and I've only recently realised the extent of this - contributed a lot to the making of the laws. Now we're adding laws again, I've been going through the 'Creating a law' section and have realised just how useful you've been there. If you find the time, it would be great to see you involved in that again. BTW your law on IVF has just been implemented.

I've also enjoyed our passionate off-topic discussions, although I know I've been guilty of snapping at you a few times. What you say about the shift in your political views is very interesting. In retrospect, I think you were probably already shifting in the period before you went on hiatus. I seem to recall there were occasions when I said you were being "ideological" and then you had to explain your actual position was more pragmatic than I thought it was.

On the themes of utilitarianism and disembodiment, which you touched upon, have you heard about the fate of Jeremy Bentham, the so-called "father" or "founder" of utilitarianism? Under his instructions, his body was dissected and then preserved after his death. The head became separated from the body and later became so deteriorated it was replaced with a plastic replica (with Bentham's own hair glued on...). Bentham's remains are held by my old university. I remember attending a lecture on utilitarianism where, part way through, the lecturer grasped our attention by dramatically opening a cupboard door and revealing Mr. Bentham.

Here is the body, with the fake plastic head attached:

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And here is the real head, which is apparently considered to be too gruesome to be put on public display these days:

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But anyway, I am meandering, aren't I? I have only one real thing to say: welcome back!!! :)
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Re: EEL is returning

Postby EEL Mk2 » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:33 am

Aquinas wrote:BTW your law on IVF has just been implemented.
Oh, yay. I'll see if I can cook up any more of these.

Aquinas wrote:In retrospect, I think you were probably already shifting in the period before you went on hiatus.
Yes, I think that that's very true (not that I would've admitted it at the time). In the period immediately before and after I left, I was trying to find a synthesis between the two different schools of liberalism (i.e. modern and classical), largely as a response to a book I read (Free Market Fairness by John Tomasi - you should get it). At that time I was more sympathetic towards classical liberal conclusions, but felt that the intellectual basis for modern liberalism was a lot more coherent. But a couple of months ago I decided to sod the lot and rework things from first principles, which was frankly an almost traumatic experience (alright, I exaggerate a little). That said, I still think that a utility-maximising society involves a (largely) free market and broad degree of latitude socially and politically too. In that sense not a huge amount has changed, even if the way I approach things has fundamentally changed. Although I think that you'll note that I am significantly more moderate than previously.

Aquinas wrote:have you heard about the fate of Jeremy Bentham, the so-called "father" or "founder" of utilitarianism? Under his instructions, his body was dissected and then preserved after his death. The head became separated from the body and later became so deteriorated it was replaced with a plastic replica
You serious? What a nutter. Mind you, his head is pretty good-looking by the standards of a 200-yr-old (or 300, if you count from when he was born) cadaver.
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