Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

[Aquinas]

Please lets not ascribe any "blame" to the player who proposed Darnussia's current Cultural Protocols. I accept full responsibility for the decision to approve them. I ultimately approved them, not him.

His first proposed update was declined on December 28th over concerns about the scale of the changes proposed to the religious demographics.

On January 5th he presented the proposal again, but without such substantial changes to the religious demographics. That was accepted.

Concerns have been expressed about the textual blurb in the new Cultural Protocol. Please bear in mind that Moderators do not put much focus on this when assessing whether to accept a Cultural Protocol update or not. To quote the Game Rules:

16.3 Whilst Cultural Protocols bills may contain information about a nation and suggestions about how to play in it, the parts of the Cultural Protocols which are officially binding are specifically:

- cultural demographics (eg. Luthori/English)
- linguistic demographics (eg. Luthori-speaking/English-speaking)
- religious demographics (e.g. Hosian/Christian)

Again, it is the demographic data which is officially binding.

As it happens, I am unaware of any Cultural Protocols update being rejected on the grounds of the textual blurb in the whole history of Cultural Protocols, so this hardly seems to be a new thing.

Concerns have also been expressed about the changes to the cultural demographics. The recent update did shake these up a bit, but there was an exceptional case here.

Darnussia's previous Cultural Protocols were more than 5 real-life years old, did not conform to the rules and made little sense to its players or, truth be told, even to me.

They included real-life references that were against the rules, such as "Jewish", "Protestantism" and "Catholicism".

The percentage figures for the ethnic demographics added up to 174%, not 100% as the rules require.

No description had been provided of what the ethnic categories were, which was causing confusion. Even I do not know what a "Kozari" or a "Lusitanian" are, despite trying to looking it up on the wikia and elsewhere.

In these circumstances, where the Cultural Protocols were not in conformity to the rules and were causing confusion, I was sympathetic to accepting the second proposal that was made. To my knowledge, Darnussia has long been role-played as basically a Dutch and German nation, and all the proposal did was regularise that.

I understand players from outside of Darnussia have contacted Darnussia's players, urging them to change their Cultural Protocols again. A proposal was passed but was not accepted because it did not comply with the rules. The 1 month playing requirement had not been reached, and proper descriptions of the categories had not been provided.

That Cultural Protocol update would probably have been accepted if it had met the criteria. If the players there want to try again, they are of course welcome to do that.

[Steven]

Please lets now ascribe any "blame" to the player who proposed Darnussia's current Cultural Protocols. I accept full responsibility for the decision to approve them. I ultimately approved them, not him.

His first proposed update was declined on December 28th over concerns about the scale of the changes proposed to the religious demographics.

On January 5th he presented the proposal again, but without such substantial changes to the religious demographics. That was accepted.

Concerns have been expressed about the textual blurb in the new Cultural Protocol. Please bear in mind that Moderators do not put much focus on this when assessing whether to accept a Cultural Protocol update or not. To quote the Game Rules:

16.3 Whilst Cultural Protocols bills may contain information about a nation and suggestions about how to play in it, the parts of the Cultural Protocols which are officially binding are specifically:

- cultural demographics (eg. Luthori/English)
- linguistic demographics (eg. Luthori-speaking/English-speaking)
- religious demographics (e.g. Hosian/Christian)

Again, it is the demographic data which is officially binding.

As it happens, I am unaware of any Cultural Protocols update being rejected on the grounds of the textual blurb in the whole history of Cultural Protocols, so this hardly seems to be a new thing.

Concerns have also been expressed about the changes to the cultural demographics. The recent update did shake these up a bit, but there was an exceptional case here.

Darnussia's previous Cultural Protocols were more than 5 real-life years old, did not conform to the rules and made little sense to its players or, truth be told, even to me.

They included real-life references that were against the rules, such as "Jewish", "Protestantism" and "Catholicism".

Because when they were made those real references were allowed in the game. When the game stopped using real life references, those religions were still kept but were under new names like Hosianism, Yeudish. From my understanding Orthodox Catholic Church became the Aurorian Patriarchal Church, etc. . .

The percentage figures for the ethnic demographics added up to 174%, not 100% as the rules require.

No they don't add up to 174%, and I've just double checked that they do indeed add up to 100%. It's 74% Darnussian, which are split between Nariki (40%) and Kozari (34%).

No description had been provided of what the ethnic categories were, which was causing confusion. Even I do not know what a "Kozari" or a "Lusitanian" are, despite trying to looking it up on the wikia and elsewhere.

It took me two seconds to look these ethnic categories up on the wiki. You not knowing what a Kozari is doesn't mean much anyway, you've probably never played in Darnussia. I know very little of nations like Zardugal or Cobura, but I'm sure they're equally rich in history. I've been playing this game for like 10 years and Darnussia didn't even exist when I first registered on here. It was under a completely different name at the time.

http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Kozari_people
http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Narikatonites
http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Lusit%C3%A2nians
http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Darnussians

In these circumstances, where the Cultural Protocols were not in conformity to the rules and were causing confusion, I was sympathetic to accepting the second proposal that was made. To my knowledge, Darnussia has long been role-played as basically a Dutch and German nation, and all the proposal did was regularise that.

I understand players from outside of Darnussia have contacted Darnussia's players, urging them to change their Cultural Protocols again. A proposal was passed but was not accepted because it did not comply with the rules. The 1 month playing requirement had not been reached, and proper descriptions of the categories had not been provided.

That Cultural Protocol update would probably have been accepted if it had met the criteria. If the players there want to try again, they are of course welcome to do that.

At this point that player has been around for a month. He registered in Darnussia on January 07 and it's well passed a month now. I'm assuming that if he reproposes them, since he's been around for a month with those wiki links for the ethnicities attached the cultural protocols will be approved. I don't know what else needs to be added.

[Polites]

Well, then if one has to dig through the wiki to find out what each of those things means, as well as for the info that the Narikis and Kozaris are subsets of the Darnussian group as opposed to separate ethnicities, which is the idea one might get from the original text, then they weren't very useful now, were they? A CP is supposed to stand on its own, without the need to browse through other sources, and if those sources are needed, then it should at least provide some links. Hopefully the player there will be able to provide a CP update that satisfies both the accessibility requirement and is in line with the Commonwealth's RP history.

[Aquinas]

No they don't add up to 174%, and I've just double checked that they do indeed add up to 100%. It's 74% Darnussian, which are split between Nariki (40%) and Kozari (34%).

Nobody could have known that from looking at that document.

It took me two seconds to look these ethnic categories up on the wiki. You not knowing what a Kozari is doesn't mean much anyway, you've probably never played in Darnussia. I know very little of nations like Zardugal or Cobura, but I'm sure they're equally rich in history. I've been playing this game for like 10 years and Darnussia didn't even exist when I first registered on here. It was under a completely different name at the time.

http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Kozari_people
http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Narikatonites
http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Lusit%C3%A2nians
http://particracy.wikia.com/wiki/Darnussians

Even those pages do not make clear what the real life equivalents of those groups are. Nobody looking at those pages would gain a clear idea of how they should go about role-playing those cultures in terms of character naming and language translations.

At this point that player has been around for a month. He registered in Darnussia on January 07 and it's well passed a month now. I'm assuming that if he reproposes them, since he's been around for a month with those wiki links for the ethnicities attached the cultural protocols will be approved. I don't know what else needs to be added.

As I have explained to you previously, Cultural Protocols updates need to conform to section 16 of the Game Rules. All of the information you need for updating Cultural Protocols is in there.

One of the requirements is this:

16.6 Cultural Protocols bills must provide descriptions of the cultures, languages and religions which would be easy for an unfamiliar player to understand (eg. "Dundorfian = German"). Where appropriate, they should also provide guidance to players on where to find help with translations and character names. This might include, for example, links to Google Translate, Behind the Name's Random Name Generator and Fantasy Name Generators.

[Steven]

Nobody could have known that from looking at that document.

You seriously can't be suggesting that nobody could have figured it out when I figured it out.

Even those pages do not make clear what the real life equivalents of those groups are. Nobody looking at those pages would gain a clear idea of how they should go about role-playing those cultures in terms of character naming and language translations.

I wasn't aware that real life equivalents had to be listed in the wiki. That's not a rule and never has been a rule so now you're just making shit up on the fly. Real life equivalents have to be posted in the cultural protocols, which they were right here "Darnussia is based very loosely on German, Dutch and Slavic cultures. People from the islands will have Dutch-sounding names, and people from the mainland will have German sounding names."

As I have explained to you previously, Cultural Protocols updates need to conform to section 16 of the Game Rules. All of the information you need for updating Cultural Protocols is in there.

One of the requirements is this:

16.6 Cultural Protocols bills must provide descriptions of the cultures, languages and religions which would be easy for an unfamiliar player to understand (eg. "Dundorfian = German"). Where appropriate, they should also provide guidance to players on where to find help with translations and character names. This might include, for example, links to Google Translate, Behind the Name's Random Name Generator and Fantasy Name Generators.

You've pointed this out again and again, when in fact the cultural protocols make it clear that ""Darnussia is based very loosely on German, Dutch and Slavic cultures. People from the islands will have Dutch-sounding names, and people from the mainland will have German sounding names."

Well, then if one has to dig through the wiki to find out what each of those things means, as well as for the info that the Narikis and Kozaris are subsets of the Darnussian group as opposed to separate ethnicities, which is the idea one might get from the original text, then they weren't very useful now, were they? A CP is supposed to stand on its own, without the need to browse through other sources, and if those sources are needed, then it should at least provide some links. Hopefully the player there will be able to provide a CP update that satisfies both the accessibility requirement and is in line with the Commonwealth's RP history.

Fair point but I view the wikis as added flavour and it's basically information that can't be fit into a cultural protocol. The rejected protocols did explain who the Narikis and Kozaris in real life terms (Dutch and German types).

[MichaelReilly]

Hell, I'll reactivate my account, fix the 'broken' old cultural protocols, get them ratified by a 2/3rds vote, and get them passed. Then we can delete the new cultural protocols that were created only a month ago by a new player.

Therefore Darnussia will have cultural protocols that are perfectly within the rules and at the same time have stood for the past 3,000 in game years.

[Aquinas]

Steven,

There is no requirement for wikia pages to explain in-game cultures in terms of comparison with real-life ones, although for obvious reasons, it can be helpful to do so. The point I was making is that even if new players took up your suggestion of researching the wikia, they would have still been unable to discern the character naming and language translations conventions of the cultural groups listed in Darnussia's previous Cultural Protocols.

As you say, Darnussia's previous Cultural Protocols did mention about people from the islands having Dutch-sounding names and people from the mainland having German-sounding names. However, they did not provide descriptions/explanations for each of the listed cultural groups, and that was problematic for obvious reasons.

Hell, I'll reactivate my account, fix the 'broken' old cultural protocols, get them ratified by a 2/3rds vote, and get them passed. Then we can delete the new cultural protocols that were created only a month ago by a new player.

Therefore Darnussia will have cultural protocols that are perfectly within the rules and at the same time have stood for the past 3,000 in game years.

I look forward to seeing whatever you and the other Darnussia players propose.

[MichaelReilly]

Steven,

There is no requirement for wikia pages to explain in-game cultures in terms of comparison with real-life ones, although for obvious reasons, it can be helpful to do so. The point I was making is that even if new players took up your suggestion of researching the wikia, they would have still been unable to discern the character naming and language translations conventions of the cultural groups listed in Darnussia's previous Cultural Protocols.

As you say, Darnussia's previous Cultural Protocols did mention about people from the islands having Dutch-sounding names and people from the mainland having German-sounding names. However, they did not provide descriptions/explanations for each of the listed cultural groups, and that was problematic for obvious reasons.

Hell, I'll reactivate my account, fix the 'broken' old cultural protocols, get them ratified by a 2/3rds vote, and get them passed. Then we can delete the new cultural protocols that were created only a month ago by a new player.

Therefore Darnussia will have cultural protocols that are perfectly within the rules and at the same time have stood for the past 3,000 in game years.

I look forward to seeing whatever you and the other Darnussia players propose.

Don't hold me to the 1 month rule.

You know I'm an old hand.

[Zanz]

Mike, the one month rule makes sense for protection of legitimate protocols (like you want to implement) and an exception shouldn't be made, in my opinion. I've waited the month in Jelbania, because I understand it's important as a push against the previous system of parties activating and immediately destroying the work done by those who existed prior. Anyone who wants to wait around a month is very dedicated to changing the protocol. If we allow exception and people with experience are allowed, for some reason, to change protocols immediately, we are setting a bad precedent that would question the protocols entirely.

[SelucianCrusader]

Mike, the one month rule makes sense for protection of legitimate protocols (like you want to implement) and an exception shouldn't be made, in my opinion. I've waited the month in Jelbania, because I understand it's important as a push against the previous system of parties activating and immediately destroying the work done by those who existed prior. Anyone who wants to wait around a month is very dedicated to changing the protocol. If we allow exception and people with experience are allowed, for some reason, to change protocols immediately, we are setting a bad precedent that would question the protocols entirely.

I'll finally be free to change the protocols tomorrow.

Do the RP. Help the protocols you have in mind to make sense for newer planers and older alike.

I now understand why Narikaton's new protocols were passed. As Aquinas said, the former didn't make much sense if you didn't already have all the background information. I just hope we can manage to affirm the protocols of all relevant countries before may this year.