Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Doc » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:12 pm

From Pentalarc's CP

Languages: There are 22 official languages in Kalistan, and many unofficial ones, though almost everyone speaks one or both of only two related ones: Vrassan and Odufar. These are symbolized by English with American vocabulary and British pronuonciation for Vrassan, vice-versa for Odufar. Vrassan is spoken primarily in Vrassa, Ananto, and nothern Neveras, while Odufar is spoken primarily in Odufaray, Suldanor and southern Neveras.



Kalkalli: Hindustani Indian: From the original Kalii Tribes
Note: hindustani would then be the original base of the people of the Country, which, in pre-history, early history was invaded and intermixed with a BUNCH of other cultural elements. There haven't been pure anything in Kalistan since long before I actually began playing there. The pure Kalkalli stock has been intermixed with Italian, German, Dutch, Russian, Chinese, Japanese etc etc etc for thousands of years. So the question remains, why is it that Hindustani has suddenly become the political majority culture in Kalistan all of a sudden within the last hundred years? And why would Moderators choose then to enforce THAT culture in Kalistan?

Surely, the Moderators can see how arbitrary this must seem to someone who has been away a few months only to return and find an alternate universe in his country.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Polites » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:04 pm

Explanation for the language shift was sent to you via PM. To summarize, as the CP does not give any ethnic breakdown, there is nothing to specify which language has the most native speakers, so the assumption is that English was the lingua franca 500 years ago, but has long since been replaced in that role by Anantonese (now defined as Punjabi, undefined in the CP), the language of the Imperial Court as per the CP. Same goes for ethnicity, since there is no ethnic breakdown, one can assume any number as long as the Kalkalli (Hindustani) end up being the largest.

I guess granting Kalistan a culturally open status would be an option, but I'd rather we find an acceptable update that includes percentages for ethnicity and religion.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Aquinas » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:26 pm

Doc:

Firstly, welcome back to the game - I'm glad you've returned to us, and I hope you will remain with us! I appreciate it can be a bit of a shock when you return to a nation to find things looking like they've been shaken up. This is something that sometimes happens in the game, though.

Kalistan's culture, as defined in its Cultural Protocols, has not changed since you were last playing there. What has changed is that, for a variety of reasons, Moderation is requiring all nations to have detailed Cultural Protocols which include a percentage breakdown of at least the cultural and religious demographics. Kalistan's existing Cultural Protocols do not offer that, so we are asking for them to be amended. There is a discussion going on in Kalistan at the moment about designing more detailed Cultural Protocols. You are a long-serving Kalistani player, so it is highly desirable that you should take part in that discussion, so you can offer your experience and perspective.

Another change that has been made is that we now have a Nation Renaming Guide to guide players as to which language their nation title should be in. As you can see, at the moment, Kalistan's nation name can be in English or an Indian language (although other languages would be allowed if a "very strong case" is made). You can offer us feedback on whether this should be adjusted on the Nation Renaming Guide: feedback thread. It would probably be a good idea for Kalistan's players to think about whether to do this after they've passed the new Cultural Protocols.

A smaller change which has been made is that the Cultural Protocols Index now includes a short description of the culture of each nation. This description does not replace the Cultural Protocols; it is just a guide. At the moment, Kalistan's description reads:

A very multi-ethnic/multi-racial place"; "Hindustani Indian" the largest group


You and the other Kalistani players are welcome to suggest changes to this on the Nation descriptions in the Cultural Protocols Index thread. Again, it might be worth thinking about this after you've passed the new Cultural Protocols.

You mentioned about giving Kalistan "Culturally Open" status. Right now, this is probably not on the cards, because we are going through a bit of an overhaul already. But if this is something you and the other Kalistani players feel you really want, then you can make your case, of course, and we will consider it.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Doc » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:06 pm

Firstly, welcome back to the game - I'm glad you've returned to us, and I hope you will remain with us! I appreciate it can be a bit of a shock when you return to a nation to find things looking like they've been shaken up. This is something that sometimes happens in the game, though.


Of course. Shaken up may be a bit of an understatement, but this remains to be seen, I suppose. And thank you for the welcome back. :)

Kalistan's culture, as defined in its Cultural Protocols, has not changed since you were last playing there. What has changed is that, for a variety of reasons, Moderation is requiring all nations to have detailed Cultural Protocols which include a percentage breakdown of at least the cultural and religious demographics. Kalistan's existing Cultural Protocols do not offer that, so we are asking for them to be amended.


I hope to, and will do so after the election which is coming up. It is always better to have seats in matters like this. As I read them, the break down of ethnicity and religion and so forth, seems to be in line with how it has always been RPed in Kalistan, but this was the point- Ethnicity was always an RP element, but was never enforced, or even emphasized, and furthermore, just because Kalistan had the Hindustani ethnicity listed first didn't mean it was the predominant culture of Kalistan. not by any stretch of the imagination. As the Primary supporter of the conversion to Hindustani has stated, no ethnicity has more than 15% of the population who identifies with it. That was listed first, I suppose, because they were the Aboriginal population of the country, but we could clear that up with Pentalarc. But it doesn't mean we are, or ever have reflected Hindustani culture in Kalistan.

As for the Other threads, thank you for pointing them out. I saw that Moderation put three threads into our Nation's Page forum, so those are the ones I am going on (after all, I was just reactivated last night.)

Thank you for taking the time to respond in this fashion. The October 1 deadline is looming, so I suppose I had better get to work, but after the election.

Have a great day,
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Doc » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:27 pm

Explanation for the language shift was sent to you via PM. To summarize, as the CP does not give any ethnic breakdown, there is nothing to specify which language has the most native speakers, so the assumption is that English was the lingua franca 500 years ago, but has long since been replaced in that role by Anantonese (now defined as Punjabi, undefined in the CP), the language of the Imperial Court as per the CP. Same goes for ethnicity, since there is no ethnic breakdown, one can assume any number as long as the Kalkalli (Hindustani) end up being the largest.

I guess granting Kalistan a culturally open status would be an option, but I'd rather we find an acceptable update that includes percentages for ethnicity and religion.


I read that explanation, and I have argued there that it is rather thin. Because of the decline in other countries, all of a sudden our language morphs into something that it has never been even close to (or as close, I suppose as English is to Punjabi/Hindustani). The SPoK has never RP'ed in Punjabi, and we have only been absent from Kalistani affairs for 100 years. Before my absence, nobody ever RPed as Punjabi Parties. It wasn't that the Parties were out of step from the population. It was that the Population is not Punjabi, and didn't use Punjabi as a prestige language until VERY recently. That amounts to the imposition of a foreign language on our country.

And further more, according to the CP which was accepted in 2012, Kalkalli was the native language of the initial stock of people here, but the country was invaded from all different directions by other languages and traditions. So the analogy which would be appropriate is if the US made Hopi its national language, just because those were the original inhabitants, though only a very small percentage claim to be full on Hopi. Or I suppose, we could make the case for making German our National Language since a plurality of people list Germany as their ancestor's country of origin (a larger percentage, it appears than list "Kalkalli" as their origin, according to recent discussions on the subject.) And it would be exactly as strange to do that, if you wok up one day and the Federal Government decided that because 18% of the population call Germany their ancestors' country of origin, therefore, we will put all of our Government Documents in German henceforth, as well as restile our country as "Vereingte Staaten von Amerika". That would be absurd!

So I guess a lot of blanks were just filled in by putting "Punjabi" and "Hindustani" in their place, and for Kalistan, that seems very arbitrary. It is not even clear why Hindustani HAS to the be Largest- As I read the CP, they are just one of many minorities, and yet there is a (or 2, anyway) unifying culture over all of it, which did not conduct their affairs in Punjabi.

It all just seems arbitrary to me and completely out of step with the RPed history of Kalistan, and the CP will be enforced following this very arbitrary decision, but I suppose the appropriate place to work is on the CP itself.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Kubrick » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:23 pm

Or you could observe it as a retcon to make Kalistan a truly unique part of its continent, which features many nations with unique cultures. The Anglophone nation with French, German and Dutch doesn't really fit on the continent if you look at surrounding nations, nor does it really fit in the world history of Particracy, being the history before the playtime.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Doc » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:40 pm

It may shake out like that anyway, But I would prefer to not simply ignore all previous RP and go in for what would essentially be a reboot starting 70 years ago.

If there is a more plausible way to RP the rise of the language, this might be preferable. But simply imposing it to keep up with enforcement of CP's, which is like metagaming, is not very satisfactory. I am sure that we can get to somewhere between the two positions, to allow for cultural change which doesn't simply happen as a result of a legislative action which has no basis in an extended RP of some sort.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Doc » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:48 pm

Additionally, I have always held that what makes Kalistan different is its political culture which has been developed over its history. Ethnicity has never been a major cleavage in Kalistan- usually the disagreements rise over whether we have civil liberties or police powers, whether we have more or less social democracy, whether we participate in World events or not. We've RPed civil wars (plural) over these issues, but have never gone to war because one ethnicity wanted to crush or surpass another. That our RPs happened to be conducted in English is incidental, and I don't suppose that will change. But at any rate, the sudden rise of Hindustani culture, as distinct from the larger Kalistani culture as it has been played, is not justified simply by the overall decline of other world powers. What other world powers do doesn't necessarily create cultural vacuums in Kalistan, unless those cultures gave our people some reason to deliberately distance ourselves from them, like attacked us as they were headed down the drain.

But we are looking at the matter in the CP thread, so I'm repeating myself here.
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Imperial Dark Rome » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:51 pm

Polites wrote:
Aquinas wrote:Of course, if, over time, a strong consensus develops that it would be better for the Culturally Open nations to become English (or for something else to be done with them, for that matter) then we could review the whole situation. So feel free to make your case. Just bear in mind we're unlikely to change anything immediately, since we've just imposed a major change already.


Fair enough, guess we'll see how the new rules work in practice. I am not entirely sure about making Davostan Culturally Open though; I don't think IDR would be particularly happy about that.


Indeed, I am very upset about the permanent death of a unique Davostag culture, but I shall remain calm and hope for a compromise...

(But first a little backstory...)
It was nice to see the mods got rid of the fake cultural protocol with that central asian rubbish. That had no historical connection to Davostag. It was just another act of vandalism with no meaning or worth. As the creator instantly left after passing it. Probably one of, if not the biggest act of cultural vandalism in the history of Particracy. At the time it passed I decided to not whine, and complain about it outside of Davostag, and to take that s**t like a man, and wait the 500 years for it to expire to pass the real cultural protocols for Davostag and hope moderation would protect the real culture as well as they protected the fake culture. (I had roughly about 250 years to go).

(Fast forward to now.)
As the old saying goes... "Out of the frying pan and into the fire." Now Moderation wants Davostag to be " Culturally Open" PERMANENTLY... To become the welcome doormat for all the newbies to trample on forever. To forever become a boring dull generic american clone nation. When Davostag has historically been anything but that. Davostag has been more of a culturally closed nation that should be reserved for expert players then anything else... For this (being culturally open) to happen is the death of Davostag! To never raise from the dead again like the many times I've restored Davostag before. Now it'll just be permanently dead...

I have all the information needed for the Davostag Cultural Protocols, but I have no chance of passing it due to being unusually swamped right now by newbies and/or invaders...

I'll understand if Davostag has to be "Culturally Open" right now but I hope you will accept my Cultural Protocols for Davostag when I'm able to pass it and the status of "Culturally Open" to be only temporary and not permanent. It's just too depressing otherwise...

I hope you'll consider my position, and thanks for reading. Apologies for my slow response, I've been ill recently. Kill Davostag if you must, but wait until I'm dead! Alright?... lol
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Re: Explanation of the new rules (please read!)

Postby Aquinas » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:59 pm

I'm sorry you've been unwell, IDR, but am glad you are back. Like many others here, I regard you as one of the long-standing, most memorable characters of this game!

In terms of the way you seem to prefer to role-play Davostan, I would have thought the recent changes are very much in your favour. You are no longer obligated to follow the previous set of Cultural Protocols, which you were not keen on. In practical terms, things have gone back to pretty much the way they were before that.

I will confess to being intrigued that you are now wishing you could pass Cultural Protocols, because you made no attempt to introduce Cultural Protocols during the 3 years between when Cultural Protocols were first introduced and when Davostan's Cultural Protocols (which have now been rescinded) were passed. My recollection is that you didn't think the Cultural Protocols system was appropriate for your vision/understanding of Davostan (see, for example, your comments here).

We're probably unlikely to change Davostan's cultural status for the time being, because we've just been through a process of significant change already. But if you and other players in Davostan are really keen to have something different in place then we will, of course, listen very carefully to whatever you want to propose.

But in the meantime, I hope you won't feel too depressed about things. We don't really have any intention of killing Davostan, honest :).
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