Pontesi's cultural protocols

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Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:20 pm

Since this probably isn't gonna be solved in the following days due the situation in the legislature etc, I'd like to invite whoever is interested to discuss Pontesi's cultural protocols.

The current protocols are to some extent a mishmash of work done by me, Polities, Zanz and probably a few more. Zanz the old man retconed the main religion from Pontesian Bishopal (which had never really been RP:ed much to my knowledge) to Hobrazian Orthodox. I don't really mind, it makes sense considering it's culture and location, although I guess ol' Conlib would have objected if he was still around. What is the current status of the Hobrazian Orthodox Church? Is it's name (specifically the orthodox part) compatible with the rules on IRL references? (I know what "orthodox" means, but still..)

During the Commonwealth era, Pontesi used to be inspired by Victorian Britain. I like to think that there exists such a thing as a "Pntek high culture" with Artanian (English) influences. IdioC came up with a very interesting proposal:

OOC: Makes sense that it would be Norman as a lot of British Royal traditions started with the Norman invasion and Billy the Bastard (William the Conqueror). There's certainly a case for such a high culture to exist. Pretty sure that ConLib and the Phalangists were both part of IML; claiming Luthori/Artanian influence on the fashions of a "High Caste" of Pontesian Dynasties would be both realistic and in keeping with history. The Lebanese flavour certainly influenced the hierarchy at the time and it helps to have an icon with all dynasties.

I can coin "Sugir" for Cedar and suggest "Sugirkai" (Cedar people) for this high caste.

Failing that, have "Abuék Pntékai" for High Pontics in Luthori (who might consider "Pnték" a vulgate term in light of their Artanian influences) then use "Sugirkai" as a derogatory term for the blue-bloods by the masses!

It seems we had Lebanese and Turkish/Ottoman influences in the original PDC era and then added an Armenian aspect... it all links up quite well (Perhaps the British influences are a bit of a stretch unless considered in the style of Imperial Mesopotamia, Cyprus or the British Mandate of Palestine).

For what it's worth Zanz is still about on the forum as "TheNewGuy"... he chipped in on the CultPro debates.


http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=451963
Last edited by SelucianCrusader on Tue Nov 03, 2015 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby Kubrick » Tue Nov 03, 2015 12:41 pm

Where would the Normans come from though? They are basically French with a few Nordic traits here and there. Or would they only be classified as Normans? I personally like the addition of a bastard-breed of upper class Pnteks, Vanuku has it sort of the same with Dorvish-Wrnukek breeds that speak Dutch.

But would they just speak Jelbic or would they be something new?
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:32 pm

Hi. I'm IdioC and I approve that message.

*ahem*

I don't think they would be Normans in the RL sense (language, culture) but would have Norman-like aristocratic fancies and trappings, due to the exchanges of ideas through the interbreeding royal families like to do (which would at least be broader than the genetic material, but I digress). The system of Barons, Dukes etc., which continues in RL Britain to this day, started in the era of the RL Normans and Plantaganets and would explain the Victorian high caste influences from the PontDynCom era.

As for language, Luthori makes sense (the original language of the PDC at the time), but perhaps Old High Jelbic too.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:51 pm

...although another idea for the high-caste language would be Selucian. We certainly had latinate influences on the PontDynComm's variables that would ostensibly have come from Selucia in the game world.

Considering the Atabeg Accipitrum was top dog in those days with a part-latin title, they would probably have needed to be well-versed in Selucian as well as a more refined form of Pnték for dealing with the populace (just as RL latin had Classical and Vulgar forms).
What is that weird Jelbék language what I types with me computer buttons?

"Kae orzy sedrijohylakmek, megàmojylakjek, frjomimek. Kaerjoshu zri? Afrkmojad firja, Kae grzy Zykhiko ajozuo zri?"
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:29 am

IdioC wrote:...although another idea for the high-caste language would be Selucian. We certainly had latinate influences on the PontDynComm's variables that would ostensibly have come from Selucia in the game world.

Considering the Atabeg Accipitrum was top dog in those days with a part-latin title, they would probably have needed to be well-versed in Selucian as well as a more refined form of Pnték for dealing with the populace (just as RL latin had Classical and Vulgar forms).
That's actually great idea, and would explain the latinate names of the satrapies (and no, Azorium is not supposed to be spelled "Azorim", that's a typo on someones behalf :D ). In that case we already have the "Pontesio", who are supposedly selucianized Pntek. Instead of being sympathizers of the old regime, maybe they could be the old aristocracy, having done well through both Selucian and Pntek regimes (but perhaps not under the Jelbic khaganate). The name is of course a bit eh, I like your proposal better.

The names of satrapies, cities etc is another matter, and are complicated by the fact that the first ones weren't exactly Jelbic, since those were from before the protocols. Septentia probably needs a few armenian-sounding cities as weel, for the Arev Mardik.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby Polites » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:00 am

When I was in Selucia I was thinking of creating a distinct Romano-Jelbic ethno-cultural group (essentially merging Seluco-Barmenians and Seluco-Pontesians), with Romanized Jelbic names (like Genzius or Temircaius for Genzi or Temrkai). I agree it would make sense for the Pontesian upper class to be partly Selucianized. The Victorian elements once present in Pontesi could be explained as a result of the upper class becoming enamored with all things Luthori after the Grand Crusade, kinda like how the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia was significantly Westernized and Frenchified during the Crusades.

The Hobrazian Orthodox Church is there for both cultural (Armenian) as well as historical reasons; the old Catholic Church (Eastern Rite) [Patriarchal Church (ER) after the retcon] was explained as having been created by Hobrazian missionaries during the Middle Ages, but lost contact with the mother Church as a result of Ahmadi conquests. Since Pontesi was never conquered by the Caliphate, it would not have lost contact and communion with the HOC. Maybe the old Bishopal Church could be explained as the local HOC hierarchy in Pontesi entering communion with the Luthori Church during the Crusade, without lasting theological or ecclesiastical effect. Again the Cilician parallel is present, considering that the Cilician Catholicosate joined the Catholic Church several times during the Middle Ages, with no long-term impact.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby Reddy » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:11 am

SelucianCrusader wrote: Azorium is not supposed to be spelled "Azorim", that's a typo on someones behalf :D ). .

Haha, no. Azorim's a Hebrew word that I picked to signify the large Yeudish presence in the province and the fact that it sounds like Azorium. The province names sounded too Selucian for me, but that was understandable given that my militia had just ousted a Selucian minority regime.

I think it would make more sense for Pontesi's upper classes to be Selucianised. I role-played the country as having very Selucinised elites who look up to Selucia for both cultural and political inspiration. I had planned to install an oligarchic republic (based on ASOIAF's Braavos) later on but there was just no reasonable way of implementing it.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:16 pm

All good suggestions -- as much as I would suggest these higher castes be fluent in Selucian and Luthori for classical pursuits and regal influence in addition to a "High Pnték" for dealing with plebs -- but there's only one thing I have a slight issue with:

Polites wrote:The Victorian elements once present in Pontesi could be explained as a result of the upper class becoming enamored with all things Luthori after the Grand Crusade, kinda like how the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia was significantly Westernized and Frenchified during the Crusades.


These influences on parties in-game (which this is trying to reconcile) pre-date the Grand Crusade by 500-600 years. There was certainly prior contact and involvement with Luthori in-game at the time (he says, having a "I've been involved with this game for how long?" moment) so I would suggest that both the Church and exchange of ideas between aristocratic families was present beforehand, as much as the Crusades would certainly have cemented such bonds.
What is that weird Jelbék language what I types with me computer buttons?

"Kae orzy sedrijohylakmek, megàmojylakjek, frjomimek. Kaerjoshu zri? Afrkmojad firja, Kae grzy Zykhiko ajozuo zri?"
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby Polites » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:54 pm

IdioC wrote:All good suggestions -- as much as I would suggest these higher castes be fluent in Selucian and Luthori for classical pursuits and regal influence in addition to a "High Pnték" for dealing with plebs -- but there's only one thing I have a slight issue with:

Polites wrote:The Victorian elements once present in Pontesi could be explained as a result of the upper class becoming enamored with all things Luthori after the Grand Crusade, kinda like how the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia was significantly Westernized and Frenchified during the Crusades.


These influences on parties in-game (which this is trying to reconcile) pre-date the Grand Crusade by 500-600 years. There was certainly prior contact and involvement with Luthori in-game at the time (he says, having a "I've been involved with this game for how long?" moment) so I would suggest that both the Church and exchange of ideas between aristocratic families was present beforehand, as much as the Crusades would certainly have cemented such bonds.


Maybe there were crusades before the Grand one? There's references to an uspecified Crusade in the wiki for this 22nd century guy with a RL name, maybe that's where the Luthori influence comes from.

Also, neither the old Bishopal Church nor its breaking communion with Luthori were really RPd, which might mean that those events were simply so minor that nobody paid any attention to them, and that Pnteks have, to their mind, always been faithful Eastern Hosians, no matter what their upper class and priests told them. Luthori influence could be akin to French influence in Eastern Europe in the 18th-19th-early 20th century (at least in what was to become Romania, as far as I'm aware), where the aristocracy spoke French and dismissed the local languages as fit only for peasants and servants, even without direct involvement by France. As soon as French stopped being the international language of prestige, Romanian aristocrats immediately stopped snobbishly immitating France.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:31 pm

Polites wrote:When I was in Selucia I was thinking of creating a distinct Romano-Jelbic ethno-cultural group (essentially merging Seluco-Barmenians and Seluco-Pontesians), with Romanized Jelbic names (like Genzius or Temircaius for Genzi or Temrkai). I agree it would make sense for the Pontesian upper class to be partly Selucianized. The Victorian elements once present in Pontesi could be explained as a result of the upper class becoming enamored with all things Luthori after the Grand Crusade, kinda like how the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia was significantly Westernized and Frenchified during the Crusades.

The Hobrazian Orthodox Church is there for both cultural (Armenian) as well as historical reasons; the old Catholic Church (Eastern Rite) [Patriarchal Church (ER) after the retcon] was explained as having been created by Hobrazian missionaries during the Middle Ages, but lost contact with the mother Church as a result of Ahmadi conquests. Since Pontesi was never conquered by the Caliphate, it would not have lost contact and communion with the HOC. Maybe the old Bishopal Church could be explained as the local HOC hierarchy in Pontesi entering communion with the Luthori Church during the Crusade, without lasting theological or ecclesiastical effect. Again the Cilician parallel is present, considering that the Cilician Catholicosate joined the Catholic Church several times during the Middle Ages, with no long-term impact.
I like the idea and have had similar thoughts in the past. Actually, my long-term plan in Barmenia was something like this - distance the country from the rest of the Jelbic-spekaing world, by introducing more and more non-Jelbic words into Brmek - and the Felinist faith of course (the fact that Felinism is now a branch of Religion Seluciana is perfect in this regard, although their numbers remain depressingly low in Barmenia).

That opens up an interesting question though: who are Seluco-Jelbics in Pontesi? The definition may be floating, but in my mind, Seluco-Pontesians are more Selucian than Jelbic, the group after all originated in Selucia. Then we have the Abuék Pntékai and others who have been subject to Selucian influences for a millennium and sought to distance themselves from the pelbs through this. The wars with Selucia and the Crimson Crusade can be seen as a natural cause of the revival of Pntekai nationalism, as it gave people a reason to distance themselves from the Selucian world.

I like this explanation. We can assume that a large part of the Luthoran influence have diminished by now, as Luthori is no longer a global power. Some things may remain, of course.
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