Pontesi's cultural protocols

General discussions about the Particracy web game.

Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:08 pm

I've also got a few proposals for new city names. The current ones are a strange blend of the pre-cultural protocol ones and the once I made up for Pontesi under Selucian minority rule. The purpose here is to represent the Pntek as well as the minorities. As names are very preliminary of course, I trust IdioC's ability to create Jelbic place names that make sense a lot more than my own. ;)

Azorim -> Azorium

Blackthorn -> Spinetum (Blackthorn)
Campus Felix -> Gohrstad
Celestia -> Tel Shemesh [Yeudi, means "Sunny hill" in hebrew]
Nazirija -> Geikhafrta

Bazileum

Arcem Phoenicis
Dawnstar -> Campus Stella (Dawnstar)
Liviapolis
Victoria

Caespasia

Gadurinova -> Graksmorfluz

Lerna
Makati
Pntekey -> Pntestad

Mitraeum

Campus Lyncas -> Trifluz
Cruxium -> Jezhrne
Diar Elahmar
Hargeisa

Septentria

Devoleia
Elbanek -> K’ary [Nrktek, means "The Rock" in Armenian]
Leo Invictus -> Foksmístad
Pontesia -> Getap’nya [Nrktek, means "Riverside" in Armenian]
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby Polites » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:26 pm

SelucianCrusader wrote:That opens up an interesting question though: who are Seluco-Jelbics in Pontesi? The definition may be floating, but in my mind, Seluco-Pontesians are more Selucian than Jelbic, the group after all originated in Selucia. Then we have the Abuék Pntékai and others who have been subject to Selucian influences for a millennium and sought to distance themselves from the pelbs through this. The wars with Selucia and the Crimson Crusade can be seen as a natural cause of the revival of Pntekai nationalism, as it gave people a reason to distance themselves from the Selucian world.


I see Seluco-Jelbics as comprising fully or partially Selucianized Jelbics, Jelbified Selucians, and people of mixed Selucian and Jelbic ancestry, who would all be united by looking to Selucia rather than the Jelbosphere for political and cultural inspiration. After centuries and even millennia of coexistence and intermarriage I'd find it very unlikely to have "pure" Selucians or Jelbics anyway. In Pontesi the Seluco-Jelbics might include both the Abuék Pntékai (Selucianized Jelbics) and the native coastal Selucians (mixed ancestry).
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:55 pm

Polites wrote:Maybe there were crusades before the Grand one? There's references to an uspecified Crusade in the wiki for this 22nd century guy with a RL name, maybe that's where the Luthori influence comes from.


I could well believe that. It's not an objection to Crusader influence, more keen to ensure there's no time paradox.

SelucianCrusader wrote:That opens up an interesting question though: who are Seluco-Jelbics in Pontesi? The definition may be floating, but in my mind, Seluco-Pontesians are more Selucian than Jelbic, the group after all originated in Selucia. Then we have the Abuék Pntékai and others who have been subject to Selucian influences for a millennium and sought to distance themselves from the pelbs through this. The wars with Selucia and the Crimson Crusade can be seen as a natural cause of the revival of Pntekai nationalism, as it gave people a reason to distance themselves from the Selucian world.


Perhaps the Selucian influences diminished over time. There were also some parties with anti-Selucian mindsets, so perhaps in the same way the UK royal family became "Windsor"s in order to mask their German ancestry during WW1 (especially in the light of violence against German-sounding shops, restaurants etc. at the time, even renaming Sauerkraut "Liberty Cabbage"), some of the higher caste adopted more Jelbic traits to avoid this fervor. Perhaps Jelbics mimiced high-Selucians if they ended up in the money so as to seem superior, rather than Selucians adopting Jelbic traits?

The key issue lies in Selucia's old stance towards Pontesi. What I don't know is what the global politic was like prior to Pontesi's formation... had Selucia claimed any territories in what became Pontesi (after all, Selucia was the first Majatran nation to be inaugurated)? Were Selucian elites drawn to Pontesi to stake a commercial claim?

---

With respect to City Names, why not have translations brackets?

Modifications in underline, annotations in italics.

Azorim -> Azorium

Blackthorn -> Spinetum (Blackthorn)
Campus Felix -> Gohrstad
Celestia -> Tel Shemesh [Yeudi, means "Sunny hill" in hebrew]
Nazirija -> Geikhafrta "Glory flag"? Not sure if I've heard a place named after a flag and it sounds too much like "Glory hole" for my liking.
Suggest: Nazirija -> Támnryamt "Honour mountain"

Bazileum

Arcem Phoenicis
Dawnstar -> Campus Stella (Dawnstar)The capital would have translations in all languages.
Suggest: Dawnstar (Campus Stella, Amsaékstrhosí) Just to allow all translations.
Liviapolis
Victoria Eager to retain this for historical reasons

Caespasia

Gadurinova -> Graksmorfluz
[i]"Dark River". Ooo. Like it. Mysterious.

Lerna Eager to retain this for historical reasons... the old capital!
Makati
Pntekey -> Pntestad Pntezistad is more correct.

Mitraeum

Campus Lyncas -> Trifluz
Cruxium -> Jezhrne Suggest Jezhrnedomura. Although "Domura" means village, so does the "dorf" in "Düsseldorf"
Diar Elahmar
Hargeisa

Septentria

Devoleia
Elbanek -> K’ary [Nrktek, means "The Rock" in Armenian]
Leo Invictus -> Foksmístad "Fog town". Like it.
Pontesia -> Getap’nya [Nrktek, means "Riverside" in Armenian]


For what it's worth, I support the lack of Pnték region names. The higher castes would have set them.

If other cities are considered for replacement, I am happy to make suggestions.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:27 pm

I've created a new category for Seluco-Jelbics in the proosal:

ETHNICITY

Jelbics = Central Asians / Eurasian Steppe Peoples
-- Pntek = Pnték-speaking Jelbics with hints of Armenian traditions
-- Brmek = Brmék-speaking Jelbics from Barmenia
-- Jelbek = Jelbék-speaking Jelbics from Jelbania
-- Wrnukek = Brmék-speaking Jelbics from Vanuku
Seluco-Jelbics = Romans with Jelbic influences and romanized Jelbics
-- Seluco-Pontesians = Romans with slight Pntek (Jelbic/Armenian) influences
-- Abuék Pntékai = Pntek (see above) with Roman influences and hints of Victorian British traditions

Arev Mardik (Nrktek) = Armenians
Yeudis= Jews
Majatrans = Arabs


~Percentages of the Population~
Jelbic - 54%
-- Pntek – 47%
-- Brmek - 5%
-- Wrnukek – 0.5%
-- Jelbek – 1.5%
Selucio-Jelbic - 26%
-- Seluco-Pontesians – 17%
-- Abuék Pntékai – 9%

Arev Mardik - 12%
Yeudi - 6%
Other (mainly Augustans, Gaduri and Majatrans) - 2%


Now, I just need to do a naming guide for them as well, and beef up the history paragraph a bit.

Thanks for the feedback IdioC. I've created a new bill for the city names as well.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:34 pm

Not a problem.

Perhaps we should keep some straight-up Selucians in the mix too though. As our neighbours, some will have come across.
What is that weird Jelbék language what I types with me computer buttons?

"Kae orzy sedrijohylakmek, megàmojylakjek, frjomimek. Kaerjoshu zri? Afrkmojad firja, Kae grzy Zykhiko ajozuo zri?"
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Sat Nov 07, 2015 11:15 pm

IdioC wrote:Not a problem.

Perhaps we should keep some straight-up Selucians in the mix too though. As our neighbours, some will have come across.

Not exactly a problem for me. I've always RP:ed the Seluco-Pontesians as more or less straight-out Selucians, although I'd guess they would have some minor Jelbics traits (like a few names or customs they might have picked up) in comparison to those living on the isles.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:17 pm

SelucianCrusader wrote:
IdioC wrote:Not a problem.

Perhaps we should keep some straight-up Selucians in the mix too though. As our neighbours, some will have come across.

Not exactly a problem for me. I've always RP:ed the Seluco-Pontesians as more or less straight-out Selucians, although I'd guess they would have some minor Jelbics traits (like a few names or customs they might have picked up) in comparison to those living on the isles.


Fair enough. Sounds good to me.
What is that weird Jelbék language what I types with me computer buttons?

"Kae orzy sedrijohylakmek, megàmojylakjek, frjomimek. Kaerjoshu zri? Afrkmojad firja, Kae grzy Zykhiko ajozuo zri?"
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:59 am

IdioC had something very interesting to say in another tread:

IdioC wrote:The Selucians, for example, now have a strong influence in Pontesi and can make it a second vassel entity, while the Jelbic sphere shrinks to two nations (Barmenia is sufficiently different now). This is a better balance for the game world and also means fewer nations need to have a potentially offputting conlang, however much I may love it. Once I get my new job's shit together I hope to be a more active player with Zanz in Jelbania and actually contribute something again.

Question would come to system design: do you have a "Unique Culture Bonus" (perhaps in the form of extended time before expiry (e.g., 8 months cf. 4) with suitable conditions) and/or a "Homogenity Penalty (within protected nations alone)"? It could afford the answer to the laissez faire play/cultural protection balance to add criteria along these lines.

However, Zanz is right that in order to get the new players, we have to spread the world. Let's work on the playspace then bring people in.

---

I should also add that I know my opinions on this issue have fluctuated and given suggestions that counteract things I've previously said at times. Part of it is because I want to test notions and see what people think; part of it is because I am admittedly reduced to looking for hope in any direction.


I'd actually like to increase Pontesi's Armenian element at the expense of Jelbic. I imagine Pontesi to be something like the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, as Polites mentioned previously. I know that moderation doesn't like too marginal concepts like Okinawan Sekowo, so let's just say it's Armenian with a Latin influence. :)

I've prepared translations of the nation name: Res Publica Hereditarii Ponticum / Hamagortsakts’ut’yan yerkrneri Pontats’i (in the Nrakti: Համագործակցության երկրների Պոնտացի).

This has to be done gradually, of course. I imagine a lot of the people who identify themselves Pntek as having a significant Arev Mardik heritage. It wouldn't bee to far fetched if many Pntek would learn the language and start speak it for nationalistic reasons. The Abuék Pntékai could act as a steeping stone, essentially being a merger of all the three cultures.
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby IdioC » Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:33 pm

Just RP a rediscovery of a language (Welsh in the '70s anyone)? There's lots of linguistic/cultural "revivals" in various real-world places at the moment (old foodstuffs in Iceland, Taino ritual rediscoveries in Caribbean nations, Druids at Stonehenge to name but a few...).

Before Vanuku adopted Jelbic influences, Pontesi was pretty isolated as a Jelbic culture (Barmenia came and went). Jelbism there could perhaps be claimed as an imported factor -- as Kanji and some of their pronunciations were imported to Japan from China -- to make up for orthographical/conceptual shortfalls in their indigenous language. After all, the original Pontesian Dynastic Commonwealth drew from Lebanese/Syriac influences and Jelbic culture from Turkic (n.b. not necessarily Turkish) Steppe tribes from what I can see of the evolution. Technically, I imported Jelbic influences to Pontesi myself so as to continue the language development (I moved back to protect the PDC bringing the languages with me), then retconned it for convenience and "realism" before the Turkic influence was brought in*. The common ethnological types are more a result of later work on the Jelbics by others than by any designs I had; with the Lebanese influence on the PDC being little-mentioned after the Phalanx/Phalangists left, it might even be total serendpity!

You've got real world precedent, a mechanism to follow and -- for what it's worth -- my blessing at least.

(*The original aim was for Eastern European Steppe peoples (Romanians, Slavs, Finno-Ugric) to make a parody of bad translations in newspapers. I love the evolution towards more Eastern steppe peoples as it was beyond anything I originally considered. People give me far too much credit on here.)
What is that weird Jelbék language what I types with me computer buttons?

"Kae orzy sedrijohylakmek, megàmojylakjek, frjomimek. Kaerjoshu zri? Afrkmojad firja, Kae grzy Zykhiko ajozuo zri?"
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Re: Pontesi's cultural protocols

Postby SelucianCrusader » Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:31 pm

All right, seems there's quite a few who like the idea of Armenianization. Great!

I'd like to simplify the various groups at some point, for making Pontesi a bit more.. easy to play, using language as the relevant factor:

Group 1: The people today known as Pnteks and Arev Madiks (Armenians). The core of the nation.
Group 2: Abuek Pntekai (Romanized/Western Armenians) The traditional elite.
Group 3: Selucians (Romans) Majority in Bazileum, mostly present in coastal areas (a bit like the Fenno-Swedish).
Group 4: Remaining Jelbicized Pntek and other Jelbic-speakers (the Jelbic)
Group 5: Yeudi (Jewish). Mostly present in Azorium.

These groups could possibly be simplified further (groups 2 and 1 could both be subsets of the same Armenian, i. e. "Pontosi-an", group).

Suggestions? :P
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