Discussion (was Particracy's World War)

[Reddy]

I'm now glad I pulled out of this. I was a little too panicky about my time restraints but it doesn't mater so much now. Could have been me on the receiving end of some of all that love on the world events thread from the military experts. I think I can say with full confidence I will never again contemplate, let alone take part in any kind of international war RP. It's really bad, unpleasant business now.

[SelucianCrusader]

I'm now glad I pulled out of this. I was a little too panicky about my time restraints but it doesn't mater so much now. Could have been me on the receiving end of some of all that love on the world events thread from the military experts. I think I can say with full confidence I will never again contemplate, let alone take part in any kind of international war RP. It's really bad, unpleasant business now.

There needs to be some kind of regulation surrounding military RP in general, including someone who keeps statistics on who produces what and the relative military strenght of each country. OTAF is the best we've got right now.

Of course, some of the comments directed towards the new guy were far from nice or even civilized, but the root of the problem remains: people claiming to process all kinds of military stuff just like that. Maybe I'm one of few players who actually feels comfortable with imagining my country having cavalry divisions and WWII-esque equipment (and flamethrowes of course).

[Zanz]

I'm now glad I pulled out of this. I was a little too panicky about my time restraints but it doesn't mater so much now. Could have been me on the receiving end of some of all that love on the world events thread from the military experts. I think I can say with full confidence I will never again contemplate, let alone take part in any kind of international war RP. It's really bad, unpleasant business now.

It doesn't have to be, and this one won't be if I'm participating. Join in, Reddy

I'm now glad I pulled out of this. I was a little too panicky about my time restraints but it doesn't mater so much now. Could have been me on the receiving end of some of all that love on the world events thread from the military experts. I think I can say with full confidence I will never again contemplate, let alone take part in any kind of international war RP. It's really bad, unpleasant business now.

Of course, some of the comments directed towards the new guy were far from nice or even civilized, but the root of the problem remains: people claiming to process all kinds of military stuff just like that. Maybe I'm one of few players who actually feels comfortable with imagining my country having cavalry divisions and WWII-esque equipment (and flamethrowes of course).

I'm not going to beat a dead horse, that issue has been dealt with (properly) by Aquinas. But for the record - I think it's very foolish to even begin to imagine that one person who is new to the game is deserving of poor treatment because of the behavior of prior players who we think were similar to him. No one can learn to be a positive member of this community if we run them out OOC the first time they post IC because they don't know the rules of the road. We can, we have, and we should continue to foster the growth of players into solid RPers by offering reasoned, constructive, and understanding feedback. This game has a learning curve that many never get past because they reach it and then someone throws them down it. I'm tired of it.

[Reddy]

Selcru - this is not an isolated incident, there have been quite a few over the past 48 hours and a number of instances over the past year or so like in the Ibutho civil war. Even partially blaming the victim of the bullying with the 'root of the problem' comment doesn't help anything. Technically according to game rules, he has a right to have 1,000 aircraft carriers if he likes, it's only the number of troops who are limited. There's no rule mandating realism on this front. Harassing someone for having a thousand aircraft carriers is just the same as harassing someone for playing a Crusader movement in '21st century' Particracy or maybe an oligarchic, plutocratic republic....basically any Majatran state. Neither is forbidden by the game but both are outrageously unrealistic.

Frankly the general obsession with realism troubles me, where will it end - unrealistic government systems maybe? All it does is dull the game and make a copy of the RL world which defeats the whole point of an online game in my view. I remember watching a certain and very unrealistic feudalistic Dolgavan RP as a new player, conducted by some of the most talented players, that was the one that got me hooked in initially. I'm not saying players should be outlandish on military RP etc but it's easier to draw flies with honey than gall, speaking nicely and trying to explain to a new player doesn't hurt. I know, I've had my moments in the past when I was rude to a new player but I like to think that I've changed and certainly have never used elaborate methods to humiliate someone. You all wonder why so few players are willing to take part in RP, is it really that hard to figure out.

We are a relatively small community, it's not like Youtube or Nationstates, if you insult, harass or abuse someone, they will not forget it and will likely quit like that Hobrazian guy. I don't forget how a certain senior player (long gone now) treated me when I started playing this game. He could have just sent a message explaining basic things but oh no, it had to be a torrent of verbal abuse. It was only later in Dranland when some of the more experienced players helped soften my rough edges.

OTAF is 'all you have' - you and 15 other players. I'm not a member along with 150 odd other players. Are we to be forbidden to take part in military RP? It's not official nor enforceable, except perhaps for its members. And I think the conduct of the OTAF leadership team and members is counter-productive.


Zanz- even if lovely you takes part, I highly doubt you can actually stop this. It's become like a tradition. I think I'll stand my decision and watch from the sidelines.

[Xinz]

Reading through this thread is somewhat comical. The last few posts are pretty much lobbing backhanded comments at Farsun, a guy who, for the time I've known him, is a pretty stand-up guy with a big heart. Zanz, doesn't he consider you a "friend" I don't know, that seems like a pretty petty thing to do to someone who considers you a friend out of game and Reddy, can't speak for you. I know him in real life and I've played with him here, fortunately I haven't had much time to play because I travel a lot for work but I may consider joining back up as I'll be home for an extended period of time. He's rough around the edges online and I cannot for the heaven understand why, he pretty much takes abuse all day and is one of the most relaxed and laid back person I know. I have a problem with underhanded and backhanded words being tossed about someone online, call me a softie but it's a pretty petty thing to do to someone, especially if they're a "friend" so to speak.

I just thought I'd chime in as a "new player" since I technically am despite whatever affiliation I might have. If you want to go with the concept that anyone can have 1,000 aircraft carriers and if someone doesn't want to RP with them, then don't is pretty silly. Don't we want to bring people into the game rather than force them out? Isn't that the whole point of your blatant attacks on three people who've attempted to show initiative in-game when many of you haven't? Maybe their forte isn't politics or they prefer military-based RP over political RP. Should we force them out? Nope. I work in HR, a lot of what I've seen here is pretty funny. Airing out dirty laundry in public? That's pretty brutal haha not to mention pretty much the same exact thing that people are accusing him for. "Bullying" It's funny. Zanz probably could speak to this but probably won't, you gotta credit the guy for trying. The game rules are pretty broken in the sense that what governs where someone stands in power? Its an integral part of politics is power and this game is done being developed. Its akin to a steam early access game that isn't pulled but the developer isn't doing shit for but accepting the rewards for half-broken games. I'd venture a guess that accepting donations to "speed the progression of the game along" is also illegal and false advertisement...but we won't go there.

I love the concept of the RP Team, but what have they done? I remember Farsun yaking my ear off about the idea and being excited about it...even when he was approached and told he wasn't going to be on it because, well he wasn't "nice enough". He was still proud that something that he's been pushing for years now, was alive, did he receive any mention or credit? Nope. One of the fundamental things that we teach in HR is that you reward people for doing well, and educate those who do bad and finally punish them if all else fails. That's the name of the game. It's pretty clear that wasn't done. But back to my original question, what have they done? It has been....almost a month and we've got very little to show for the RP Team. When we create a committee or something at work, we lay out the plans and get to work. Right, this isn't a job but should they be at least informing us what they are doing? Maybe a discussion on the proposed "military" and "economic" protocols they plan to create. Whats the idea on them? Whats the community say? I'm pretty sure thats the idea behind the RP Team is that they work with the community to create things, but I could be wrong on that.

For those BASHING OTAF, have you read the recent document? Link It's pretty solid and the guy who wrote it, the one thats being bashed, probably has dedicated more time than most to trying to advance the game to the point where its freeing for most players. I challenge people to read the document and actually go have a chat with Farsun about it rather then damning it because, well, its actually pretty solid and does allow for almost absolute freedom. I don't know where Particracy gets its "RP" rules from but maybe someone who knows a thing or two about RP in a play-by-post forum should sit down and discuss what's god-modding, powerplaying because I see those words thrown around and no one knows what they really mean. Yeah, we know this isn't the real world but its human instinct to measure things against things that they know. You cannot tell me that you do not measure what things are in-game just by some fanciful ideas that "sound good" because that's strange as could be.

I would also challenge the RP Team to maybe, I don't know, approach the guy and ask him his opinions on what should be implemented and not. Vescia seems like a good source too; pretty stand up guy from what I've seen and dealt with. Again, this is me just putting my two sense into a thread that seems hellbent on shaming someone underhandedly without actually saying the poor guys name (who might I add is defenseless). I also think most people should get off the high-horse and start ATTEMPTING to make solutions instead of bitching about the problem. When someone wants to be active, wants to be involved, you should try and pull them in and not push them away. It's pretty clear thats done with new players here (hell, happened to me) and players who attempt to make things a reality. Oh, otherwise you'll have to abide by the Rilandor Accords, which were in the game rules and suck. Entirely suck. Polites is to cultures what OTAF was to militaries, it created a culture of difference.

Aquinas, I know few things about you nor have I had much interaction with you but one tip my friend, from an HR guy, don't ever publish what you're doing behind the scenes in public. It's the first way to just cause so many problems. I wish you the bes of luck to you friend. I'd also probably reach out to Farsun, he usually extends the hand of peace and is reasonable to chat with 1-on-1. Guys a lovable pyscho! You can PM me if you wish to do so, I'll shoot you his e-mail.

[Reddy]

Ah I finally get it, Xinz. So your friends are the victims, not that Hobrazian player who was practically hounded out for not conforming to the diktats of an unofficial organisation? Thanks for clearing it up.

[Zanz]

Enough of this before we get this thread locked too.

[Reddy]

Enough of this before we get this thread locked too.

Agreed. For my part and hopefully to end this, I wholeheartedly apologise for my outrageous, insulting and bullying comments said in this thread. If I hurt anyone's feelings, please forgive me... I was mistaken about certain things and like Paul, the scales have fallen from my eyes.

[Xinz]

Ah I finally get it, Xinz. So your friends are the victims, not that Hobrazian player who was practically hounded out for not conforming to the diktats of an unofficial organisation? Thanks for clearing it up.

I'm glad that I could clear that up for you, pretty sure that person that you are underhandedly commenting about, cannot defend himself. That's pretty petty for someone to do, don't you think? That poor Hobrazian player, his feelings must've been so hurt that he remained in-game and actually took the advice of the players in that thread that he re-posted something about his military? Funny how that works.

but yeah, I'm pretty sure the victim is both parties if you can comprehend that. Also about the whole "realism" thing, I'm pretty confident no one tries to enforce realism or "obsesses" over it, rather just does not enjoy playing with themselves in a country but try's to engage abroad. Something that I can see many players here rather enjoy doing with the exception of a few. If you believe for one second believe the political, economic and military "power" are not linked, then I cannot help you friend.

Your sarcastic and caustic tone is not needed either. It's rather harmful to me as a new player.

[Polites]

Can we please take all this OOC hostility and turn it into something more productive? This environment is definitely not helping anyone here.

I just have one thing to add to this debate, specifically about the role of the RP team. Although you guys haven't seen much actual input from us as an official team, that don't mean we're just sitting on our asses. We've been building up a (hopefully) decent and universally acceptable standard for economic and military ranking, we're working on developing the colonies, and we're also figuring out how to best exercise our right to create global RP. None of that has been made public yet, but it will, shortly. Just have some patience. We are particularly keen on having our rankings be acceptable to as many players as possible, while being both accessible to most and allowing those who want something more in-depth to have their say. This is a huge task, and it may take a while before it is fully fleshed out and ready to be released to the public. OTAF is indeed not official, and it is likely it will not become official in the near future. But, we fully recognize the hard work that was put into developing the system, and we are certainly using the Manual as one of our main sources of inspiration.

Polites is to cultures what OTAF was to militaries, it created a culture of difference.

Thanks for the compliment there, I appreciate it. But I must emphasize that I personally have, as far as I remember, been as diplomatic as possible in promoting and protecting the work I did on cultures, and I'd appreciate it if everyone were to try to do the same, especially when it comes to new players who may be unfamiliar with the unwritten rules on military RP. I get where the OTAF people are coming from, I really do. But there's a better way of promoting OTAF and other unofficial military standards than what's been going on in the past few months.