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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Liu Che/Zhuli » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:58 pm

RIS wrote:First of all I want to thank you guys for what you are trying to do here. It really is nice to see a formal outline as to the economic status of terra's nations. Secondly I would like to inquire as to the reasoning behind Hutori being classified as being of medium development. Not that I am necessarily against it I was just wondering if you had taken everything into account. For instance the International Terran Bank which holds billions of dollars worth of accounts is headquartered in Hutori (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6557). Furthermore Hutori is also home to the Rocc Cola Group which exports/ed to two other nations (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6584, http://classic.particracy.net/vieworgan ... ionid=3748). Also Hutori and Kalistan just recently signed a trade agreement which allowed Hutori to purchase Kalistani oil at a discounted rate (http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=462117, http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=462115). Now like I said I'm not saying that Hutori must necessarily be a highly developed nation and I would be fine with our current status as it would give me some thing to work for. :) However, I am interested in knowing if these factors had been taken into account and if so what type of bearing they had on the RP Team's decision.

Thank You,

RIS


A lot of those developments are fairly new. We took a long term subjective approach, plus budgetary focus (education, health and social services, etc.). If you continue your RP of development, then I have no doubt Hutori will one day be able to go where it wants to be.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby RIS » Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:03 pm

Liu Che/Zhuli wrote:
A lot of those developments are fairly new. We took a long term subjective approach, plus budgetary focus (education, health and social services, etc.). If you continue your RP of development, then I have no doubt Hutori will one day be able to go where it wants to be.


Respectfully only one of those is new, the International Terran Bank is over a 100 in-game years old and the Rocc-Cola Group is 11 in-game years old which I guess is relatively new. Regardless I thank you for your response.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Polites » Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:36 am

RIS wrote:Respectfully only one of those is new, the International Terran Bank is over a 100 in-game years old and the Rocc-Cola Group is 11 in-game years old which I guess is relatively new. Regardless I thank you for your response.


The forum thread for the ITB is really new though, and the bank hasn't shown up in major international RP (as far as we can tell) until January this year. As Zanz mentioned in the OP, we give strong preference to forum RP, exactly because it's easier to spot and interact with by most active players. We will definitely take the ITB into account for the next update though, especially if it continues on the current track. For now, you could say Hutori is an aspiring Highly Developed nation, but not quite there yet.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Autokrator15 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 12:58 pm

Guys, im quite happy with our place though I have some questions and some objections. I will list them in order and some will be more heated then the other, they are with the soul purpose of my own learning to better RP, interest in how you decided on these things seeing you all are in the high developed countries and why I think New Endralon is positioned about right.

A lot of those developments are fairly new. We took a long term subjective approach, plus budgetary focus (education, health and social services, etc.)

This is the first thing I would love to ask about. I am a free market liberal. You can sell me a lot of things but I will never admit that government spending on these things are any indication of the development of a country. My nation for example spends near nothing on the public sector and leave a lot to the private sector.

Please understand that any petition is most likely to be denied and the rankings listed here will remain unchanged.

Not a good way to sway people to your side. I have all freedom to remove my ratification of the RP accords.

These countries have economies centered most heavily on manufacturing or extraction-based industries, but they might also have some clusters of post-industrial industries along side some agricultural industry. These countries have lower life expectancy, less education, and less income (primarily GDP per capita) than high development nations, but they can also generally boast higher employment than the increasingly automated high development nations, a more citizenry more generally engaged in the political sphere than in the more alienated high development nations, etc. These nations likely are more likely to be heavy polluters than many other nations. Though they are generally less active on international markets than high development nations, their economies often center around export and so trade is relatively important.


This is where I draw some questions. This limits us a lot. You can specify an indication on which we could think of whilest RPing but we don't know what resources each country has a lot of as there is no map of it to my knowledge. I have NO idea what my country has in natural resources or what it produces a lot of. And I do see New Endralon / Kizenia with quite a lot of modern industry, services and moving towards what we would call a border of a medium to high developed nation. The only thing why I agree with being medium is because Kizenians and New Endralonians have been quarraling for ages which causes instability and thus generates an unfavourable economic climate. Also the communist - capitalist switches this country has seen as the New Endralonians and Kizenians keep pushing it forward and backward have caused us to be medium. Would this be okay? I do agree on the trade part, I do picture my nation on having a focus on trade and shipping etc.

I would also request a resource map and talks with those who ratified it on what their main export or main industry is. This could aid in future RP.

We are very confident in this methodology

As stated above I am not. I do not consider it an outspoken reality that they are heavy poluters. I mean eastern Europe aren't the richest around. I see New Endralon more like an Eastern European country then a bloody Asian nation like China (who classifies as medium FYI).

Kizenia


Confederation of New Endralon, Kizenia & Kuzaki or New Endralon / Kizenia this is a very VERY delicate issue. We have had fights over the name, to calm all disputes I ask you to use the proper names I stated.

Above all a good list guys, I hope that more follows like I've asked for here. I will contact you guys for aid in my RP.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Liu Che/Zhuli » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:20 pm

Autokrator15 wrote:Guys, im quite happy with our place though I have some questions and some objections. I will list them in order and some will be more heated then the other, they are with the soul purpose of my own learning to better RP, interest in how you decided on these things seeing you all are in the high developed countries and why I think New Endralon is positioned about right.

A lot of those developments are fairly new. We took a long term subjective approach, plus budgetary focus (education, health and social services, etc.)

This is the first thing I would love to ask about. I am a free market liberal. You can sell me a lot of things but I will never admit that government spending on these things are any indication of the development of a country. My nation for example spends near nothing on the public sector and leave a lot to the private sector.

Please understand that any petition is most likely to be denied and the rankings listed here will remain unchanged.

Not a good way to sway people to your side. I have all freedom to remove my ratification of the RP accords.

These countries have economies centered most heavily on manufacturing or extraction-based industries, but they might also have some clusters of post-industrial industries along side some agricultural industry. These countries have lower life expectancy, less education, and less income (primarily GDP per capita) than high development nations, but they can also generally boast higher employment than the increasingly automated high development nations, a more citizenry more generally engaged in the political sphere than in the more alienated high development nations, etc. These nations likely are more likely to be heavy polluters than many other nations. Though they are generally less active on international markets than high development nations, their economies often center around export and so trade is relatively important.


This is where I draw some questions. This limits us a lot. You can specify an indication on which we could think of whilest RPing but we don't know what resources each country has a lot of as there is no map of it to my knowledge. I have NO idea what my country has in natural resources or what it produces a lot of. And I do see New Endralon / Kizenia with quite a lot of modern industry, services and moving towards what we would call a border of a medium to high developed nation. The only thing why I agree with being medium is because Kizenians and New Endralonians have been quarraling for ages which causes instability and thus generates an unfavourable economic climate. Also the communist - capitalist switches this country has seen as the New Endralonians and Kizenians keep pushing it forward and backward have caused us to be medium. Would this be okay?

I would also request a resource map and talks with those who ratified it on what their main export or main industry is. This could aid in future RP.

We are very confident in this methodology

As stated above I am not. I do not consider it an outspoken reality that they are heavy poluters. I mean eastern Europe aren't the richest around. I see New Endralon more like an Eastern European country then a bloody Asian nation like China (who classifies as medium FYI).

Kizenia


Confederation of New Endralon, Kizenia & Kuzaki or New Endralon / Kizenia this is a very VERY delicate issue. We have had fights over the name, to calm all disputes I ask you to use the proper names I stated.

These countries are the ex-colonial nations of Terra, whose colonial regimes abused them in order to profit in days gone by


Another problem with your overconfident methodology. New Endralon / Kizenia was a colony once of Endralon in an age gone by, broke free and has ruled in peace ever since. Though we do not qualify for abuse as we have three major ethnicities and good ties with Endralon and traded with them for a long long time it would be best to specify the abused part a bit more.

Sekowo


That they are high developed I have no problem with, but is it considered that they have been under the thump of Indrala? I do not know their relationship but it should be considered.

Above all a good list guys, I hope that more follows like I've asked for here. I will contact you guys for aid in my RP.


1. I am a free market liberal as well. However, capitalism does not exclude the government from investments in infrastructure (Adam Smith was a huge proponent of this). Additionally, I would argue that any big service or high tech industries would simply move to places where they get subsidies from the government, which are very anti-free market. Basically, if everyone doesn't practice free market policies, the free market doesn't work the way it should work. Plus, allowing everyone to say the private sector takes care of it is a huge cop out. All governments around the world practice anti-capitalist policies, largely for political reasons, as in most government spend money on a variety of things in society because that is what society or subsections of society demand, making it reasonable to include budgetary focus measurements. These measurements are also relative to each nation, meaning we do not convert everything to LOD and then compare. Rather, we want to see what each individual nation views as important.

2. Probably not the best way to get people on our side, but we are being honest since we know that we cannot bend to everyone, because that would most likely make the point of the list moot.

3. Limitations on RP, ones that are realist and actually enrich RP instead of making everything nearly identical, is good. As for your explanation of your country's situation, you can have whatever explanation you want. Our list is merely to show where everyone is, not explain why they are there. That is up for the players to decide for their individual situations.

4. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying the list should also reflect the real world standing of the nations in which PT nation's are based?

5. A name change is very easy to do and we will be happy to comply.

6. Ex-colonial in this case refers to the former colonies of Dovani, Temania (formerly Squibble), Tropica, and Vascania. Underdevelopment does not apply to playable PT countries.

7. Relations do not really come into play with this list. Plus, Sekowo hasn't been under the thumb of Indrala.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Autokrator15 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:23 pm

Kubrick wrote:As Liu said, the list is not permanent. Things change in Particracy and things will keep changing. When I first arrived in Vanuku I roleplayed it as a medium developed nation which overall was quite poor and below average. Over the years that perception seems to have changed and now it's on the high development list.

Plus there are also plans to make a military ranking and with that updates will be even more important. Reviews will happen!
The military, I would some help developing my nations military further. After the moderation cleaned up everything I cant find the bill which stated all our numbers, equipment etc. quite annoying so I have to think of it all on my own but I have NO CLUE on military names, equipment and im just doing something. So when I have the time ill contact you guys about it.

The economy thing is indeed good. I see New Endralon as a nation that has potential for greatness if the infights and political instability due to the rivalry between the three ethnicies wasn't so great. I would like as I said in my earlier post see a resource and production map, it would greatly help.

These measurements are also relative to each nation, meaning we do not convert everything to LOD and then compare. Rather, we want to see what each individual nation views as important.
I totally agree with this. Doing so would limit everything. Also the size of the GDP, the military strength and its international standing says nothing about its economic development. Look at China and Russia for instance.

I am a free market liberal as well. However, capitalism does not exclude the government from investments in infrastructure (Adam Smith was a huge proponent of this). Additionally, I would argue that any big service or high tech industries would simply move to places where they get subsidies from the government, which are very anti-free market. Basically, if everyone doesn't practice free market policies, the free market doesn't work the way it should work. Plus, allowing everyone to say the private sector takes care of it is a huge cop out. All governments around the world practice anti-capitalist policies, largely for political reasons, as in most government spend money on a variety of things in society because that is what society or subsections of society demand, making it reasonable to include budgetary focus measurements.
Don't get me wrong, I don't oppose this. Adam Smith was right and my economic books also state the various things a government needs to do to develop a country to the next stage and I intend to keep to that. They simply aren't what you are mentioning though I do think they should be factored in. But I feared a too Keynessian bias would be used, I agree that a total anarchy or a unlimited free market and a totally socialist nation would both get a lesser rating then nations who are less ''radical''. Our nation has also invested more in education and healthcare because of it. So no critizism but a skeptical view to see if bias was in play, which it wasn't.

Probably not the best way to get people on our side, but we are being honest since we know that we cannot bend to everyone, because that would most likely make the point of the list moot.
Agreed, though the wording could have been chosen more carefully.

3. Limitations on RP, ones that are realist and actually enrich RP instead of making everything nearly identical, is good. As for your explanation of your country's situation, you can have whatever explanation you want. Our list is merely to show where everyone is, not explain why they are there. That is up for the players to decide for their individual situations.
Oh okay, that's what I wanted to hear, thank you!

4. I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying the list should also reflect the real world standing of the nations in which PT nation's are based?
Absolutely not. I meant to say that I questioned the wording of the medium development thing as if it were set in stone. But scrap it, its a misunderstanding from my part.

5. A name change is very easy to do and we will be happy to comply.
Thanks, I appreciate that.

6. Ex-colonial in this case refers to the former colonies of Dovani, Temania (formerly Squibble), Tropica, and Vascania. Underdevelopment does not apply to playable PT countries.

7. Relations do not really come into play with this list. Plus, Sekowo hasn't been under the thumb of Indrala.
Yeah I figured, I factchecked myself on the wiki and thus removed these questions.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Doc » Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:40 pm

Autokrator15 wrote:
These countries have economies centered most heavily on manufacturing or extraction-based industries, but they might also have some clusters of post-industrial industries along side some agricultural industry. These countries have lower life expectancy, less education, and less income (primarily GDP per capita) than high development nations, but they can also generally boast higher employment than the increasingly automated high development nations, a more citizenry more generally engaged in the political sphere than in the more alienated high development nations, etc. These nations likely are more likely to be heavy polluters than many other nations. Though they are generally less active on international markets than high development nations, their economies often center around export and so trade is relatively important.


This is where I draw some questions. This limits us a lot. You can specify an indication on which we could think of whilest RPing but we don't know what resources each country has a lot of as there is no map of it to my knowledge. I have NO idea what my country has in natural resources or what it produces a lot of. And I do see New Endralon / Kizenia with quite a lot of modern industry, services and moving towards what we would call a border of a medium to high developed nation. The only thing why I agree with being medium is because Kizenians and New Endralonians have been quarraling for ages which causes instability and thus generates an unfavourable economic climate. Also the communist - capitalist switches this country has seen as the New Endralonians and Kizenians keep pushing it forward and backward have caused us to be medium. Would this be okay? I do agree on the trade part, I do picture my nation on having a focus on trade and shipping etc.

I would also request a resource map and talks with those who ratified it on what their main export or main industry is. This could aid in future RP.


Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Kalistan also falls in this category, and my current government policy is strongly environmentalist- no pollution, bans on deforestation and so forth. Just to point out "more likely to be heavy polluters" doesn't mean "are heavy polluters". This is what happens when you create an achetype. Of course, not all nations fit it perfectly. There are a lot of countries in the category of Middle Development, and of course not all are exactly the same.

I think it is better to treat these as a general description. Even if you ratified the RP protocols and had strong environmental protection laws, I think that would still be well within the category.

And I second a mapping effort for resources. I think some people tried to work on this at one point. They were trying to figure out what a RL equivalent would have based on Climate (? Do I have this right?). I think a survey would be an appropriate place to start since there may be no actual canon and arbitrary designation by a small team, especially which arbitrarily ties Terra yet again to the RL Earth, is likely to be met with fierce debate... Asking each country what they have and then assigning the rest (for those countries which do not respond) seems reasonable.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Autokrator15 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:06 pm

Doc wrote:
Autokrator15 wrote:
These countries have economies centered most heavily on manufacturing or extraction-based industries, but they might also have some clusters of post-industrial industries along side some agricultural industry. These countries have lower life expectancy, less education, and less income (primarily GDP per capita) than high development nations, but they can also generally boast higher employment than the increasingly automated high development nations, a more citizenry more generally engaged in the political sphere than in the more alienated high development nations, etc. These nations likely are more likely to be heavy polluters than many other nations. Though they are generally less active on international markets than high development nations, their economies often center around export and so trade is relatively important.


This is where I draw some questions. This limits us a lot. You can specify an indication on which we could think of whilest RPing but we don't know what resources each country has a lot of as there is no map of it to my knowledge. I have NO idea what my country has in natural resources or what it produces a lot of. And I do see New Endralon / Kizenia with quite a lot of modern industry, services and moving towards what we would call a border of a medium to high developed nation. The only thing why I agree with being medium is because Kizenians and New Endralonians have been quarraling for ages which causes instability and thus generates an unfavourable economic climate. Also the communist - capitalist switches this country has seen as the New Endralonians and Kizenians keep pushing it forward and backward have caused us to be medium. Would this be okay? I do agree on the trade part, I do picture my nation on having a focus on trade and shipping etc.

I would also request a resource map and talks with those who ratified it on what their main export or main industry is. This could aid in future RP.


Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Kalistan also falls in this category, and my current government policy is strongly environmentalist- no pollution, bans on deforestation and so forth. Just to point out "more likely to be heavy polluters" doesn't mean "are heavy polluters". This is what happens when you create an achetype. Of course, not all nations fit it perfectly. There are a lot of countries in the category of Middle Development, and of course not all are exactly the same.

I think it is better to treat these as a general description. Even if you ratified the RP protocols and had strong environmental protection laws, I think that would still be well within the category.

And I second a mapping effort for resources. I think some people tried to work on this at one point. They were trying to figure out what a RL equivalent would have based on Climate (? Do I have this right?). I think a survey would be an appropriate place to start since there may be no actual canon and arbitrary designation by a small team, especially which arbitrarily ties Terra yet again to the RL Earth, is likely to be met with fierce debate... Asking each country what they have and then assigning the rest (for those countries which do not respond) seems reasonable.


I agree. We should see it as a general description.

On the matter of the map, indeed it will be hard but I support the idea of asking each country and then assigning it to create some reality in it.
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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Doc » Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:58 pm

Here is the link to the Resources discussion that they did in the past, which may give an idea of the work already completed:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4411&start=0 (this one is really pretty good as a start)

And a more recent discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6211&start=0&hilit=resources

And a map of Oil (needs some updates- Kalistan has reserves on land as well, for example)

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Re: RP TEAM: Economic rankings for use with the RP Accord

Postby Zanz » Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:26 pm

Edited OP to use "New Endralon/Kizenia" for you, Autokrator. Thanks for pointing that out.

From what I can tell I think Liu satisfactorily answered all your questions, but feel free to rehash anything you'd like.

Both you and Doc are correct - these are meant to be archetypes, general categories for you the use to inform your RP. Not every Medium Development nation is a heavy polluter, absolutely. We tried to leave the wording open enough to allow for interpretation and variance within categories.

Also, in response to Siggon: we've decided on a 6 month IRL timeframe for a reassessment of our rankings. Six months from now we'll redo our two rankings just as we did this time and we'll re-average and update the overall rankings. Thanks for pointing out that we didn't have that codified. I'll add it to the OP now.
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