World Congress & Security Council

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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby CCP » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 am

FPC wrote:This months elections will be posted tommorow. Just a heads up.


Was the vote tally counted on the 1st though? I know one country in particular still had votes being conducted at midnight eastern US time or after. If those late votes are counted, they could flip the outcome for Seat E.

I've always had an urge to suggest that we standardize the count time (probably as midnight Central Europe Time since that's the game system's time zone) to avoid any controversy. That way, even if the Mods weren't able to post the count at that precise time, at least anyone online could take screenshots to prove the vote totals.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby Polites » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:16 pm

4327 SECURITY COUNCIL ELECTION RESULTS

Seat A: Dorvik
Seat B: Istalia
Seat C: Indrala
Seat D: Hutori
Seat E: Cobura


Full Details:

Breakdown of the vote in each seat shown below. Change compared with last election show in brackets. Nations in green were elected outright. Nation in orange was elected as the best performing runner up.

Seat A:

Dorvik= 18 (-5)
Malivia= 12 (+4)
Luthori= 8 (-)
Hawu Mumenhes= 4 (-)
Beluzia= 2 (+1)
Hobrazia= 2 (-)
Aloria= 1 (-)
Darnussia= 1 (-)
Dundorf= 1 (-)
Endralon= 1 (-)
Klavia Okeanó= 1 (-)
Kirlawa= 1 (-)
Kundrati= 1 (-)
Rutania= 1 (-)


Seat B:

Istalia= 20 (-1)
Cobura= 15 (+14)
Deltaria= 6 (-4)
Vanuku= 6 (-2)
Cildania= 3 (-2)
Solentia= 2 (-1)
Badara= 1 (-)
Beiteynu= 1 (+1)
Jelbania= 1 (+1)
Kalopia= 1 (-2)

Seat C:

Indrala= 14 (-)
Baltusia= 12 (-2)
Rildanor= 6 (-3)
Kalistan= 5 (-)
Likatonia= 4 (+1)
Saridan= 3 (-)
Valruzia= 3 (+3)
Kanjor= 1 (-)
Mordusia= 1 (-)
Tukarali= 1 (-)

Seat D:

Hutori= 19 (-)
Trigunia= 11 (-1)
Kazulia= 7 (-)
Talmoria= 4 (-)
Egelion= 3 (-)
Lourenne= 3 (+1)
Telamon= 2 (-)
Vorona= 2 (-)
Dankuk= 1 (-)
Davostan= 1 (-)
Hulstria= 1 (-)
Sekowo= 1 (-)
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby Polites » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:19 pm

CCP wrote:
FPC wrote:This months elections will be posted tommorow. Just a heads up.


Was the vote tally counted on the 1st though? I know one country in particular still had votes being conducted at midnight eastern US time or after. If those late votes are counted, they could flip the outcome for Seat E.

I've always had an urge to suggest that we standardize the count time (probably as midnight Central Europe Time since that's the game system's time zone) to avoid any controversy. That way, even if the Mods weren't able to post the count at that precise time, at least anyone online could take screenshots to prove the vote totals.


Unfortunately no, the vote was counted at the time it was posted (so with three days delay).
It's unlikely we'd ever implement a single count time, given that the votes are counted manually and we all have different time constraints. If the game itself were to count the votes then that would be possible, but there's real flesh and blood people doing the counting here.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby CCP » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:15 pm

Polites wrote:It's unlikely we'd ever implement a single count time, given that the votes are counted manually and we all have different time constraints.


But we have implemented a single count time -- the first of the month. But in this case for whatever reason it wasn't kept to. It's fair enough that Mods or RP Team Members might not always be available to be online at precisely midnight Central European Time. But at least if we say that the winners are whoever have the lead at midnight on the first, then Mods can count whenever they want, but interested players (especially those who stand to win or lose) can log in at midnight if they want to and take screenshots to demonstrate the count. I know for a fact that one of the Security Council members this term was losing at midnight CET January 1st but only won because the count was conducted on the 3rd.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby Polites » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:40 pm

We do strive to keep to the first of the month for the vote count, and so far we only missed the deadline twice, most recently because the 1st of the month was also New Year's :). It's easier and more achievable to have an entire day rather than a specific hour as the count time, for obvious reasons.

I am generally opposed to using screenshots as evidence for anything in this game, since they can be very easily altered. In this case one need only take a screenshot at a different time (when the vote goes in their favor, for instance) and just edit the time.

I understand that, had we done the count on the 1st rather than on the 3rd, the result would have been different, but to be fair this was a rather exceptional case. I've rarely seen WC campaigns get so much traction so quickly, and it's probably the first time when a delay of two days would have impacted the final result.

In any case, we will continue to do our best to adhere to the timeline, and hopefully future delays will not result in different results if such delays cannot be avoided.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby CCP » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:06 pm

Polites wrote:I am generally opposed to using screenshots as evidence for anything in this game, since they can be very easily altered. In this case one need only take a screenshot at a different time (when the vote goes in their favor, for instance) and just edit the time.


You'd actually need four screenshots and the screenshots would have to plausibly align with the vote count in subsequent days and each screenshot's visual evidence would have to precisely line-up with the other three. In this case you don't even need screenshots -- you could just look at when the decisive votes were completed.

Polites wrote:I understand that, had we done the count on the 1st rather than on the 3rd, the result would have been different,


Oh so you're aware that someone just stole a security council seat.

Polites wrote:but to be fair this was a rather exceptional case. I've rarely seen WC campaigns get so much traction so quickly, and it's probably the first time when a delay of two days would have impacted the final result.


It is not exceptional and it is not the first time. I've run security council campaigns and I've conducted security council vote counts. It is the norm that contested security council campaigns go down to the wire and that their outcomes are up-in-the-air until the very last minute. That's why a precise count time is so important. In my first security council campaign (the very first in the game), if Aquinas's count had been off by 24 hours we would have lost. It is a common occurrence in security council campaigns. You should query players who have experience in security council gameplay before insisting on such a pat response, Polites. I don't know if other players haven't noticed this thread or don't care, but they should notice and care because what you've just done has implications not only for many players' RPs but for the fairness of future elections.

Polites wrote:In any case, we will continue to do our best to adhere to the timeline, and hopefully future delays will not result in different results if such delays cannot be avoided.


We'll try to count it on the first but if we don't and it affects the result, oh well? Come on man. Players put alot of effort into these campaigns. It's one thing to disagree on setting a count time, it's another to be so nonchalant about it.

Baltusia should contest these results because they just had their seat stolen due to moderator arbitrariness.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby Polites » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:02 am

I understand your frustration, but ultimately we don't want to make a promise we most likely can't keep. The current rule is that the election takes place "On the first day of each real-life month (or thereabouts)", and that is deliberately vague to give everyone some leeway. If we followed your suggestion, not only is there the potential issue of doctored screenshots (and that is not as hard to do as you seem to assume, and nobody has the time to individually verify the pass date of so many bills), but we'd also create the expectation that votes would be "captured" at a specific time, which will create much resentment if we fail to abide by it. I mean, who will volunteer to get the screenshots (or other type of evidence), what happens if nobody volunteers, and what if the volunteers miss their deadline?

CCP wrote:Oh so you're aware that someone just stole a security council seat.


I only know about it cause you just told us in this thread. Nobody stole anything though, the results reflect the votes at the count time (which for this election was on the 3rd of January). Unless you're suggesting we deliberately delayed the election for the final result to be the way it is? If so, I assure you we have better things to do.

CCP wrote:It is not exceptional and it is not the first time.


The SC has been quite silent for the past few elections, with no more than one or two votes difference for a handful of nations from one election to the other (and one instance of a 5 vote shift a few elections ago). So yeah for the past few months such a massive increase in votes is quite exceptional, let alone such a decisive vote where a few hours/days would make a difference.

CCP wrote:We'll try to count it on the first but if we don't and it affects the result, oh well? Come on man. Players put alot of effort into these campaigns. It's one thing to disagree on setting a count time, it's another to be so nonchalant about it.


Sorry if I sounded dismissive, that was not my intention. But at the end of the day, the official result is the one determined on the count date, which is the first of the month "or whereabouts". Whether the result is impacted by a delay of a few hours from midnight or a couple of days from the 1st, the consequence is still the same. Seats being "stolen".
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby jamescfm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:49 am

Without wanting to involve myself, doesn't the lack of protest from the "loser" in this case summarise the matter pretty well? If it was a bigger deal, they would've been straight on here as soon as the deadline passed.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby CCP » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:40 am

jamescfm wrote:Without wanting to involve myself, doesn't the lack of protest from the "loser" in this case summarise the matter pretty well? If it was a bigger deal, they would've been straight on here as soon as the deadline passed.


No, Baltusia's lack of protest doesn't summarize the matter because Baltusia players aren't the only ones impacted by this. Baltusia's no-comment only summarizes the lack of interest in forum RP that characterizes most particracy players. That's a separate issue from whether RP outcomes are rendered essentially random for players who are interested in RP due to Moderators' lackadaisical approach to the RP rules.

Polites wrote:I understand your frustration, but ultimately we don't want to make a promise we most likely can't keep. The current rule is that the election takes place "On the first day of each real-life month (or thereabouts)", and that is deliberately vague to give everyone some leeway. If we followed your suggestion, not only is there the potential issue of doctored screenshots (and that is not as hard to do as you seem to assume, and nobody has the time to individually verify the pass date of so many bills), but we'd also create the expectation that votes would be "captured" at a specific time, which will create much resentment if we fail to abide by it. I mean, who will volunteer to get the screenshots (or other type of evidence), what happens if nobody volunteers, and what if the volunteers miss their deadline?


No volunteers are necessary. What establishing a specific time does is provide all interested players publicly-known grounds on which to assert or protest a particular outcome. Such interested players would then have the burden of demonstrating a certain vote tally at the specified time. Your objections regarding doctoring screenshots and insufficient time to verify so many bills are ad absurdum arguments designed to elide the point rather than address it. We don't need to consider those extreme speculative scenarios because we have a relevant example right here: as I said above, any interested player could simply pull up the two SC Vote bills which gave the beneficiary their margin of victory. The game system has recorded the precise moment those bills were passed. If they passed after midnight CET on the 1st, players who dispute the outcome win -- if they passed before midnight, the disputing players lose. Simple.

Regarding Aquinas's 'thereabouts' language in his OP creating the World Congress, that would be well and good if there had ever been a case where both the vote was tallied so far from the first and the errant count time lead to an altered outcome. Moderators and RP Team members have always been more 'thereabouts' with the count than occurred in this case, even when the election coincided with the new year. Only once before has the count ever occurred a full 2 1/2 days late, and that was the last election save one, and I wasn't active in-game at that time so I wasn't an interested party as to whether the late count affected the outcome. What this means is that there is already an expectation that votes are captured at a specific time because Moderators and RP Team members have nursed and adhered to that expectation consistently for a year. Importantly, it's not even possible to conduct an election without such an expectation because if votes can be counted at any time, the process becomes a raffle rather than an election. Every player who has led a contested SC election will tell you that the count time is key to how the campaign is conducted, affecting even down to when campaign PMs are sent out and how they are composed.

All that's being asked here is that Moderators be willing to both entertain evidence of an altered outcome due to unusual count times and reconsider their official count if justified by the presented evidence. That's a simple statement to make and it doesn't require any of the tedious labor suggested in your hypotheticals.
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Re: World Congress & Security Council

Postby Auditorii » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:03 pm

Baltusia has never, to my knowledge, genuinely participated in the Security Council. They would fall inactive naturally, I would say award it to the player or nation that is far more active.

Before we have a "REEE GAME MEKANICS!" lets realize that the SC and the WC is large in part player driven, do we want a stale, inactive nation or do we want someone whose going to do something? I know where my vote goes.
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