Consultation on military & economic power rankings

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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Axxell » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:56 am

phonexia wrote:I feel that we need a way to account the off-forum activities like increasing/decreasing budgets for certain programs for prolonged periods of time. For example, having at least 30 years of increasing military spending, for the sake of example from 2% to 4% of GDP, in combination with relaxing regulations on the military's ability to develop and manufacture weapons should at least have some effect on the ranking of a nation. Maybe not enough to promote them to a superpower or even a great power without at least some forum activity, but it should defiantly at least be able to affect nations on the weak-average level. Same with massively cutting the budget for the military. That could at least give some impact to the off-forum players or newer players that may not be as comfortable with the real in-depth forum RP. It also can prevent a nation from getting a bunch of pacifists in charge who may cut the budget for the military in massive amounts from doing so without consequence.

Basically, my weigh in on this conservation is that I feel off-forum activity and budget control should play at least some part in a nation's rankings, at the very least its military ranking.


For me not only for the military ranking, because, if in a nation for long periods the budget provided important part of the expensses for ministries as science and technology or trade and industry, but also for the infrastructure, this expensses have to be considerer. So, looking the RP activity on the forum and looking the RP on the nation (if there is), will be assigned points for increase or decrease the global situation of the nation.
Maybe, a little increase if there isn't a RP (for example without an in-game RP about... I don't know, investment programs, budget review in the tax and in the budget with precise objectives delineate, etc...), without long period of political stability or presence (if they are nations where many players have followed without relations in RP or in in-game activities with the past, etc...).

But, I think it will needs also something to compare the weight of the national currency and their purchasing power, also the budget capacity of the nations, etc... it will be very useful to understand the right level of investments, purchaising price of goods, services and equipement from other nations/RP organizations, etc... But I think that about this latter matter, without an active work on the game, will be very complicate to match these factors.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby CCP » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:57 pm

After thinking this through, I think we should dump these lists altogether. I've spoken to some other players about this and views all over the map, but there is a plurality that prefers the fluidity of a more responsive system. The problem with this list and the RP Accords list before it is that they unduly preference very old stories over new ones: Rildanor, for example, is a non-element in the game's current RP and has been for several years, yet these lists rank it favorably on the strength of stories written several years ago many of which can't be read by current players because the forum they were posted on doesn't even exist anymore. That is a formula for stasis, and as I told several players in a PM (some of whom support this kind of system), it is experienced by players uninvolved in those old stories as a prohibition against making changes. There are some players who respect continuity but want to maximally benefit from the writing and inventiveness of current players. We (I include myself in this latter group) prefer to use the legacy story as a launching pad from which to elaborate new stories or elements rather than as hard parameters within which to write. Some of us simply do not accept that if we want to play a country of a certain international clout that we have to limit ourselves to the handful of countries designated for that role 5 or 10 years ago.

Aquinas and Reddy, you are calling this current list advisory. But the reality is that any list like this posted by moderators is going to be taken as official despite statements to the contrary. Secondly, you said this list is designed to give guidance about the conduct of military and economic roleplay and in part recognize high quality RP, especially RP posted on the forum. But Rildanor, to take an easy example, hasn't produced any significant military or economic RP that can be found on this forum. And yet this current list and the RP Team's lists were reluctant to reflect that reality with anything more than a glacial decline. The reality is that if Axxell's Istalia decided to go to war against Rildanor, Istalia would win on a technicality because Rildanor's army simply wouldn't show up since no one RPs it anymore. So how can we say that Rildanor has a mid-ranked or high-ranked anything if it isn't represented in the way most of us agree is most important: RP? But despite that, this list and the RP Team lists before it tell us that Axxell should avoid writing stories about Istalia's emerging military power because . . . somebody in Rildanor wrote some RP ten years ago or something? It makes no sense. This kind of list imposes stasis on the game while claiming to encourage RP activity.

If we go back to having no system, players then are free to participate in or disregard others' RP as they'd like without the support or counterargument of an official (or official advisory) list. And since this list doesn't actually reflect how the game is being played now, we won't miss much in junking it. Finally, updating these kinds of lists is a chore and that's why they tend to fall into disuse. I say we do ourselves a favor and just RP with whomever we want. If the partners in a RP agree on each side's relative strengths, great. If not, find a new RP partner.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby MarkWill » Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:30 am

Just on a side note here...

So I decided to play in Rildanor for the first time, and I don't recall ever seeing any players from Rildanor RP while I was in another nation, but now that I'm playing in the country itself, it seems all the more startling. The wikia page isn't easily found from a search engine like Google and is outdated, as compared to other nations' pages, and the newspaper is literally only 3 pages long. Would it be feasible to ease Rildanor, through RP, into the world community after such a long period of total isolation and/or disengagement? Or, if I wanted to have more international interaction, should I go back to someplace like Luthori? :)
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Reddy » Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:53 am

CCP wrote:After thinking this through, I think we should dump these lists altogether. I've spoken to some other players about this and views all over the map, but there is a plurality that prefers the fluidity of a more responsive system. The problem with this list and the RP Accords list before it is that they unduly preference very old stories over new ones: Rildanor, for example, is a non-element in the game's current RP and has been for several years, yet these lists rank it favorably on the strength of stories written several years ago many of which can't be read by current players because the forum they were posted on doesn't even exist anymore. That is a formula for stasis, and as I told several players in a PM (some of whom support this kind of system), it is experienced by players uninvolved in those old stories as a prohibition against making changes. There are some players who respect continuity but want to maximally benefit from the writing and inventiveness of current players. We (I include myself in this latter group) prefer to use the legacy story as a launching pad from which to elaborate new stories or elements rather than as hard parameters within which to write. Some of us simply do not accept that if we want to play a country of a certain international clout that we have to limit ourselves to the handful of countries designated for that role 5 or 10 years ago.


I think there are several concerns raised here and I will try to address them.

As Aquinas stated in the first post, this list is only a draft. That means that it can and will be amended based on the results of the consultation. It's not in any sense set in stone. Think of it as being similar to the Cultural Era consultation held at the end of each Cultural Era.Or the proposal for a World Congress sub-forum.So for example, your concerns about Rildanor's position will be taken into account and the position possibly amended if it is clear that there's some kind of consensus on that view.

I do not agree that this draft document prioritises stories from the old forum. I've never actually seen the old forum myself and took a very active part in the drafting of this proposal. But then again, this draft is not in any sense perfect or fully done, it will be after the community has expressed its view and the draft amended to accommodate the community's consensus.

CCP wrote:Aquinas and Reddy, you are calling this current list advisory. But the reality is that any list like this posted by moderators is going to be taken as official despite statements to the contrary.


I don't agree with this statement. My experiences tell me that the contrary tends to be true. A good number of players resist anything that is not binding in nature and prefer their own creations and interpretations. Certainly when something is voluntary, the general rule and prevailing reality is that players will only adopt it if they agree to it. An example is the RP Accord, only about a third of countries ever ratified. The rest did not in any sense take it official since they were not bound to. Some choose to follow the RP Team's designations while remaining outside the Accord. As far as I could tell, those few players were fully aware that they were not in any sense bound.

CCP wrote:Secondly, you said this list is designed to give guidance about the conduct of military and economic roleplay and in part recognize high quality RP, especially RP posted on the forum. But Rildanor, to take an easy example, hasn't produced any significant military or economic RP that can be found on this forum. And yet this current list and the RP Team's lists were reluctant to reflect that reality with anything more than a glacial decline. The reality is that if Axxell's Istalia decided to go to war against Rildanor, Istalia would win on a technicality because Rildanor's army simply wouldn't show up since no one RPs it anymore. So how can we say that Rildanor has a mid-ranked or high-ranked anything if it isn't represented in the way most of us agree is most important: RP? But despite that, this list and the RP Team lists before it tell us that Axxell should avoid writing stories about Istalia's emerging military power because . . . somebody in Rildanor wrote some RP ten years ago or something? It makes no sense. This kind of list imposes stasis on the game while claiming to encourage RP activity.


Istalia has already been raised in this proposed ranking (from where it was previously) and if these consultations show a consensus for it to be raised further, that will happen. If the same desire is shown to exist for Rildanor to go the other way, it will also happen. I don't agree that list in any sense imposes any kind of stasis since it is meant to be amended based on the community's view. However there might an argument for some level of stasis. If a country suddenly started RPing itself as a global superpower and carries on for two weeks, should it be regarded as such? What about a month? Two months? Perhaps six months? What about trying to designate a power in each region. Should a sub-region eg South Seleya have no local powers whatsoever if the players all generally keep out of RP? We will all need to decide on these and other issues on how to approach all of this. I think a community based approach is best. That list there is only Moderation's proposal and the community is very welcome to express its view on how it could be amended and made better.

CCP wrote:If we go back to having no system, players then are free to participate in or disregard others' RP as they'd like without the support or counterargument of an official (or official advisory) list. And since this list doesn't actually reflect how the game is being played now, we won't miss much in junking it. Finally, updating these kinds of lists is a chore and that's why they tend to fall into disuse. I say we do ourselves a favor and just RP with whomever we want. If the partners in a RP agree on each side's relative strengths, great. If not, find a new RP partner.


Nothing here should be interpreted as stopping or preventing the creation of covenants between players on RP. That's the beautiful thing about RP, - since only a number of limited players are involved in any RP at any given time, they in fact do create autonomous covenants and agreements on relative strengths and such. Let's use the example of Saridan. The Saridan-World Congress confrontation involved about 20 players or more. With none of those players did I have the same rules of operation or agreement. Some of them, I never even discussed any terms or plans because of the international nature of it but others, particularly like James, Axxell, Kubrick and Oakwood, we had very long public and private discussions on plot details and responses.

As you recall during the days of the Rildanor Accords, you had a number of even larger and better organised covenants between players such as OTAF and the Particracy Realism Project. One could argue that a number of organisations such as the IML and ATR are of such a nature too.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Axxell » Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:07 am

Yes, as said in private, this is a "consultation". Probably there was too much concerns about this. Let's talk about it together and we will find the best solution.
But I said: ok, respect for the work of past players, respect as a background that now became the history of the RP world of particracy. But, today there are new players. They today are enriching the game, they today are playing the game, now today are developing the Rp world.
The past is only a back ground.
There are the possibilities for a player to enrich the game? To enrich the RP? Well, less concerns about the past and the coherency and rather aid him to find the best solution to be integrated in the Global RP. In this moment this player is definitely more active for its nation than other? Well, accept the possibilities that this nation is experiencing a boom, a growth economy or something like that while other nominally more powerfull nations, but dead in the Global RP, are entered in a decline period.
You are the first to find a realistic way of development? Well, I think that someone that arrives and pretend to be the most powerfull nation of Terra is unrealistic as well as many powerful nations that almost desappeared from the international arena.
I plaud the efforts of old players and what they built, thank you at all. But now there are new players! There are no explaination about the rising of some nations? Well, we have to find an explaination without be too concern about the past and without fear to "ruin" the past works, because the game must give the same opportunity to the players of today as well as the old players had.
For example, I don't even know why some of the first players in some nation was able to write in this forum starting to act as a power, already very well involved in the international arena, with interest in other nations, with colonial past, etc...
In any case, I'm the first to respect the background, I was the first to go to read on the wikia and here on the forum to try to interact with other players in the best and most coherent way, but is the past! People that do not playing any more or that have changed so much nations and have abandoned their previous RP threads.
They had the opportunity to start the RP history of Particracy and to contribute to the Global RP Background.
Thank you for the opportunity to talk about here, but there are sincerilly the impression that here someone is more concern to protect the past.
Someone was concern about my nation a "Nowhere Nations" It has been defined in a private message by a player that just gave me the impression of being stuck in the past and on what he had done. Applause for him and his work, but now, he is no longer interested in RP, RP Team, etc... as he said in that private message? Well, bye bye, there are new player interested today. Istalia now are playing in the Global RP, open your mind to Istalia and other nations that today are playing in the Global RP.
You have the right to pretend tha no one comes and present itself as a superpower with dozens of aircraft, with thousand of nukes, or that pretend to invade other nations, etc... ok, it's logic. But if comes someone from a nation for long time "isolated" and made request no too pretentious, give him the opportunity to enjoy the game today without too concern for the past.

For CCP, as said you in the private messages I think that a kind of rankings will be necessary. I prefer someone not too rigid, not with fixed number of nation in each category and with more attention on the current RP then on the past, but the background needs of a kind of rankings.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Aquinas » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:48 am

As I stated in the OP, "We do not see everything that goes on in the game and it is more than possible there are things we have missed or got wrong - so we need our experts (that's you guys!) to point these out to us". In other words, everything is still to play for and the current document is not set in stone. This has not all somehow been sewn up in advance. We have opened a consultation thread (this very one you're reading!) and we have messaged the nation-board of every nation in the game inviting every player in the game to take part in it. This is an open process and we are hoping for as many players to make an input as possible. We want players to feel free to discuss all of the options - and of course that includes the option CCP advocated, of abolishing the rankings altogether.

If there are aspects to the rankings you disagree with, that's fine - you can argue your case for changes. As explained in the document, the plan is that the criteria for the rankings are:

- To recognise, assist and encourage high quality role-play, most especially forum role-play.

- To reflect, so far as reasonably practicable, the consensus of informed opinion amongst players who are actively interested in and participating in role-play, most especially forum role-play.


So in other words, if you can present a good role-play case and persuade members of your argument, then you're well on your way towards achieving the change you want.

As previously stated, the document as it reads now is not final, but even going by how it looks now, it is not "glacial" in comparison to the previous rankings. For example, Hutori and Kalistan have both shot up - in both cases in response to good RP over a prolonged period. Hawu has shot up most dramatically of all, by 2 ranks, from Weak to Strong in both the military and economic rankings. Again, that was in response to good RP done over a prolonged period of time.

*

Concerns have been raised about Istalia's military ranking. Like others here, I think Axxell has been an asset to Istalia, to the Security Council and to Particracy in general. We did take note of the work that has gone on with Istalia, and we proposed raising Istalia's economic ranking from Average to Strong and military ranking from Weak to Average.

Should Istalia's military ranking have risen two ranks, to Strong? The view we took was that although Istalia's contributions had been impressive, its forays into international role-play had been a much more recent thing, seeming to begin around the time we introduced the Security Council. It was not like the Hawu case, where there was a much longer period of active RP involved. We took a view that changes by more than one rank at a time should not be common and should be reserved for the more exceptional cases. So we increased Istalia's military rating by one rank, leaving open the possibility it could go up another rank next time, if it it continues in the same way.

But as I say, that decision is not set in stone; we can do some rejigging, if that is wanted. Do we have a consensus amongst players for a higher military ranking for Istalia? I would like to hear more views on this, if possible.

*

It is becoming apparent that some here are seeing Istalia as becoming a great power in Terra, so much so that I wonder whether we are in a situation, or moving towards a situation, where some would favour it swapping places with less active nations in the top categories, like Indrala. Now this is frankly somewhat uncomfortable for me to do...but I do have certain concerns about what the consequences of that might be, and I feel it would be wrong of me not to lay those on the table, so members can at least have some awareness of them.

As some but not all here will know, for a long time - going back years - Istalia has had more problems in terms of the language compliance rules than any of the other 57 nations in the game. By this, I mean players playing the game solely in Italian without English translations. I do not 100% understand the phenomenon behind this pattern. To some extent it is to do with the same players doing it over and over, modifying their actions for a while when asked to do so by Moderation, but then lapsing into using only Italian a while later. That may not be the whole story here, though; I suspect it is simply the case that some Italian players discover Particracy, find the nation which is most alike Italy (and even bears a similar real-life name) and then settle there, without considering the Game Rules requirement that English is the official language of the game.

But whatever the reasons behind all of this, the fact of the matter is, as I said, that for a number of years, there have been issues in Istalia in terms of the language rules not being respected. I am aware that at times it may have gotten a bit ugly, with clashes between English-speaking and Italian-speaking players.

After entering Moderation in June 2015, I became much more aware of the Istalia situation than I had previously. In particular, I discovered to my alarm that a long-term Istalia player had created a bill in the debate section telling players they must communicate only in Italian or else they would be expelled from the nation. Whilst this bill was an obvious violation of the rules, interestingly in another sense it was about the only bill in Istalia at the time that complied with the rules, in the sense that it was about the only bill where an actual full English translation was provided in order to fully ensure English speakers could understand it. The rest were just in Italian.

Needless to say, I resolved to try to regularise the situation, deleting the bill and asking the players to respect the rules, meaning that whilst non-English text is allowed, it must always appear alongside a full English translation. This has been hard work at times. Periodically, new players have arrived there and not followed the language requirements, and older players have lapsed into not providing English translations and needed to be reminded.

Obviously, it is important for all nations in Particracy to respect the Game Rules and to be accessible to all players in terms of meeting the very basic requirement of conducting themselves in English, the game's official language of communication. This is arguably even more important if the nation is in any way "officially" recognised as a big power in Terra, because that will mean it has a more significant impact on players outside of the nation in role-play terms, so it is important for players to be able to go there and play there, and also just to see what is going on there.

Is Istalia sufficiently accessible in this way? I would like to be able to say I have no significant concerns, but it would be more accurate if I said there is a long-term recurring issue which continues to need to be watched.

*

Concerns have been expressed that some of the nations in the Strong and even Very Strong categories have not been actively role-played recently, and in some cases, they have not been actively role-played with for quite some time. To repeat what I wrote up-thread,

Aquinas wrote:The reason for this is that a lot of Particracy players, especially the longer-serving ones, are understandably averse to things changing too dramatically and too fast, which means some nations are retaining their high rankings on the basis of perceptions which were created through role-play done in the past. With the draft rankings, we tried to strike a balance between not unsettling players too much by making radical changes, and allowing nations to rise to more prominent positions on the basis of much more recent/current role-play. Did we strike the balance right? A question worth reflecting on, perhaps.


Bear in mind that although role-play is one of the criteria for the rankings, the other criteria is the views of players. Both are important. But are the current lists over-ranking some of the less active nations? Maybe they are, I don't know - tell us! Again, please give us your views, everyone. We can have a good discussion and talk over any changes people want to propose. Also, it would be nice to see more specific proposals, in terms of the arguments for moving specific nations up or down the rankings.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Govenor12 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:33 am

Also, it would be nice to see more specific proposals, in terms of the arguments for moving specific nations up or down the rankings.


I did so, with evidence both in game and on role play terms and it represents are strong case for Beiteynu. However, since i do not want to hurt any players feeling I remained pretty unspicific in the question: Which nation should be ranked down for Beiteynu.
And it is also pretty difficult to judge for a player from outside a nation.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Axxell » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:35 am

Aquinas, you are always precise and exhaustive, and in effect I think that some players, me comprise, was alarmed too hastily about the "new" rankings. Probably because already with the old rankings many players have found since the beginning a bit with his hands tied.
But as I already said, in effect is a "consultation" and the mods are trying all the way to emphasize it.

Like jamesfcm and as I already declared rankings needs to the RP game, are foundamental to give to the new RP players an idea of its nations and of its capabilities in respect of the other RP players and to avoid what I call "incoherence problems", or as I explained to Reddy in pm, an RP without any reasonable basis.
But rather then place the nations in alphabetical order and maintain fixed number category, inspired by a proposal for CCP what do you think to place the nations on a power scale ranking from the weakest to the strongest?
In effect I'm watching my nation: I never claim to be a super power, my concerns were not so much about the ranking, but about the fate of my Roleplay:

Axxell wrote:But probably my greatest concern is for the RP that for almost a century I played for Istalia, RP shared by other players or which have been perfectly accepted and have become part of the back ground in which we are playing.
In fact now, with this rank, what do Istalia do now? We get rid of our aircraft carriers, the RP history and also drastically change the parallel and connected RP about the istalian company (Leonardi Group) and economics?
I sincerely would feel frustrated to blow up all, and also I wouldn't know how to explain all the changement in the Istalian RP history, in the Global RP, World Congress RP, etc...
Istalia do not pretend to be a super power (now ahahah), probably for the moment we can just manage and maintain two carriers and the next few units with will enter in service in the navy (all regurally financed with in-game increase in the budget, datailed clarification in the bills, future provisions, etc...), but at least allow to Istalia to continue to follow this long time RP. In Istalia we have still many things to do but we will continue to proced in the most realistic way.


And I have precised this point also here.

And in fact I basically asked: "given the description of the everage rank, I have to drop all the military RP created until today?"

Is there the possibility to maintain Istalia in the everage rank but allow something as a "improved" situation (or in a highest position of the military everage rank if we consider a power scaled rank)? And I already explained why I accept this rank and why the other players have to consider Istalia in the everage rank:

Axxell wrote:At least we don't act as a superpower, Vanuku did, in fact it's a superpower, while my nation has put beside Kalistan and always has been waiting the orders from Kalistan. When Kalistan withdrew from the projected humanitarian multinational mission, Istalia accepted because we could make only this! Istalia took, obliged, diplomatic decision that Vanuku, as a superpower, was not required to consider.
We started to reach a large international consensus, we started to try to create a core of nations against the slavery, etc... (like the awareness campaign for the human rights: we have see how a superpower has been able to easily ignore all these things and deploy its fleet without too much trouble and sure to prevail).
Again, Istalia still have to work! And in recent newspaper articles I talked about also the critical issues, also about our new "superpower" (used ironically) fleet. The Navy will have from now and still for a long time only the two carrier build until now, which for still long time will have limited capacity given the quality of the aircrafts owned by the Armed Forces.
[...]
In general the description of the average powers has a bit disturbed me, because it's true that we are an average power, but I think that this can't be only judge from the equipement of a nations, because it's possible, like in my case, that one armed force today is a good level, but in general the military capacity of the nation is affected also by the situation of the other forces (for example the air force equipment is today unable to be at service of a "great powers minded nation" and today our capacity of projection of the force is limited and the nation will still maintain this situation for some time).


So, I don't want change the position of Istalia (I'll do my best to make grow Istalia in the future and I think I enjoy it as well as the other players) but I want defend my right to maintain my "naval RP" that started months ago and here the evidence to declared why Istalia should maintain it:

October 4066: Istalian Government propose the improvement of the navy of four new navy which provides the needed funds with this financing Law (and in proportion the financial efforts for this four unit was more important then today, to indicate that it was more important then today the efforts to achieve similar objective) preceded by another intervention of the Government which proposed also another Ordinary Budget bill (January 4066) to improve the educational but also scientific and technical capabilities of the nation.
February 4070: Ratification of the Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Defensive Alliance and Partnership between the Repubblica Istaliana and the Democratic Republic of Solentia that as specified in the treaty and in the intention of both government allowed important rationalizations of the defence expensses which, however, they have not been reduced by the government in the successive Budget proposal of December 4069 and was only reduced with the Budget proposal of November 4073 following the indefinitely freezing of a common industrial and defensive project that we proposed first to Solentia, but at the time its internal situation was not favorable, then to Vorona, but the rejecting by the parliament of the treaty made impossible to continue with the project (but the budget for the defense remained, however, to a considerable to 12% of the national expensses).
June 4078: another budget bill that considerably increased the funds for infrastructures and for trade and industry, bacause an increase in the involvement of the state in the econonomy that was directed to important investments in key sector for the economy. But, if you go to see the other bill at time, you can see how the state supported tuitions for all the student and other important social program in benefits of the general education and technically preparation of the citizens, and I think that also this bill of 4087 may have aid on the improvement of the know-how.
June 4106: additional funding to welfare, infrastructure and education with the defence budget unchanged since decades.
December 4108: here the proposal of an Humanitarian support and aid to the legitimate government of Rutania (news on Corriere d'Istalia) that was another opportunity to show the capabilities of our vessels.
August 4111: stable creation of the common command of the Istalian-Solentian Supreme Command Unified Defence Operation (SCUDO) (here the national law about the ISDA).
November 4115: approval of the Istalian-Solentian Commmon Naval Project with the funds provided with the Budget proposal of June 4120 one of the most important investment in the defence since long time, that provided not only the simply construction of the Carrier but also funds to improves the defence industry.
July 4120: again a bill to improve the Istalian military capabilities.
April 4127: Budget proposal of April 4127 to funds other foundamental programs of Istalia, among which the New Naval Program.

Then, now I think that the "ball" pass to the other players and the mods.

About the Istalian problems with the respect of the Language Rules, I'm very sorry for this, but it's something that happened before the creation of my party and since that time I can assure that english was always used in all the public communications and as Nationmaster I made the best to improve the respect of all the rules of the game, not only the language rules, but also the RP proposal, etc... also few days ago I had created a bill that I fixed in the debate section to remember to all the player the use of the english, the respect of the game rules and of the RP Istalian rules (now don't exist anymore because I delate two days ago) and always I remember to all the players when they do not use the english, like here.
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Aquinas » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:12 pm

I appreciate my posts can be rather long and exhaustive at times :). Thanks for persevering with them!

Axxell wrote:But rather then place the nations in alphabetical order and maintain fixed number category, inspired by a proposal for CCP what do you think to place the nations on a power scale ranking from the weakest to the strongest?


If you or anybody else would like to draw up a rankings list like that and put it forward for consultation, I'd be interested to see that - and I'm sure others would too. My hunch is that would be rather difficult and controversial to do, and that the existing categories system is simpler (although not without difficulties/controversies either). But this is certainly something that can be discussed and looked into.

Axxell wrote:Is there the possibility to maintain Istalia in the everage rank but allow something as a "improved" situation (or in a highest position of the military everage rank if we consider a power scaled rank)? And I already explained why I accept this rank and why the other players have to consider Istalia in the everage rank


Axxell wrote:So, I don't want change the position of Istalia (I'll do my best to make grow Istalia in the future and I think I enjoy it as well as the other players) but I want defend my right to maintain my "naval RP" that started months ago


Three points to make.

1. We are not proposing a compulsory system of military and economic guidance, so even if the document was finalised in its current form, you and the other Istalia players would still not be be bound by it in terms of the Game Rules. You can consider the guidance, but you would not have to follow it. It might be that you take on board aspects of the guidance which you find are helpful and disregard aspects you find less helpful. And that's fine - everybody can do that. Personally, I would suggest that if the guidance at least encourages people to think carefully about *why* they do not want to entirely follow it, then it has already accomplished part of its objective. ie. It is encouraging players to think seriously about how their military and economic role-play fits in with the game as a whole.

2. No decision has been finalised about Istalia's position in the rankings, so this is still very much up for discussion. ie. Do not presume the door is closed on Istalia's military ranking being raised to Strong.

3. I am picking up an impression that you are hoping to continue to RP Istalia as though it has a military in the Strong category, but are saying you want it to keep the Average ranking. My advice would be that it would be preferable (not compulsory, but preferable) if the RP conformed to the ranking, especially given Istalia is being actively RP'd. For this reason, I would urge keeping the option of raising Istalia's military ranking to Strong on the table, so we can continue to explore the possibility of doing that. We can't give you any definite guarantee at this stage - the consultation is still ongoing, and we're still hoping for more feedback. But I suggest at least keeping this option on the table.

Axxell wrote:About the Istalian problems with the respect of the Language Rules, I'm very sorry for this, but it's something that happened before the creation of my party and since that time I can assure that english was always used in all the public communications and as Nationmaster I made the best to improve the respect of all the rules of the game, not only the language rules, but also the RP proposal, etc... also few days ago I had created a bill that I fixed in the debate section to remember to all the player the use of the english, the respect of the game rules and of the RP Istalian rules (now don't exist anymore because I delate two days ago) and always I remember to all the players when they do not use the english, like here.


Indeed; I know you and others in Istalia have been working hard to keep Istalia's gameplay in compliance with the language rules, and that's really appreciated. But I did feel the need to mention that there is a long-running, recurring language issue in Istalia (which goes back years - long before you arrived).
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Re: Consultation on military & economic power rankings

Postby Axxell » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:37 pm

Aquinas wrote:Indeed; I know you and others in Istalia have been working hard to keep Istalia's gameplay in compliance with the language rules, and that's really appreciated. But I did feel the need to mention that there is a long-running, recurring language issue in Istalia (which goes back years - long before you arrived).


Yes, I know. I reed something and someone tell me something how the italian players came, how they "take possesion" of Quanzar/Istalia and how they start to use only italian, also about "assault" by players from outside Istalia.
I'm sorry for my fellow countrymen. :?
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