Consultation on Offensive and Hate Speech Regulation

[Aquinas]

Wouter's assurance about future Mod appointments is important one, and a number of us have been hoping and waiting to hear that. Thank you.

Reddy, I sense an effort to suppress discussion of recent events on Discord chat, but respectfully, if this is going to be a serious consultation, then this is not something we can entirely ignore. Respectfully, even if such places are unofficial Particracy chatrooms, you are an official Particracy Moderator (now the sole one) and you cannot reasonably expect to be perceived to completely switch off from that role when you voluntarily choose of your own free will go to these places and participate in them. As will become clearer as I continue, the conduct and example of Mods both on-site and off-site is a key factor when it comes to how Particracy deals with hate speech and offensive speech.

If this consultation is to be serious, then we need to talk about how we go about building an environment here where people feel able to come forward and raise their concerns when they spot things that should not be happening, and how they should be able to be confident those concerns will be addressed properly, without unfair comeback.

Last month I raised concerns on the forum related to both racism and homophobia, and in direct consequence was issued with a warning and then suspended, and all attempts to discuss concerns about hate speech were blocked. To my astonishment, the then-Mod Selcru then took to an unofficial Discord channel to deliver a distorted and unfair account both about what happened and about me personally. In response, I typed a short rebuttal and, amongst other things, reiterated my concerns about Selcru's well-established homophobia and how he had directed that at me, including a private message making a suggestion about me being romantically and sexually interested in 2 male players, and an incident involving him referencing me whilst proclaiming his admiration for Milo Yiannopoulos and locking a thread created by another player raising concerns about hate speech issues.

Instead of investigating the complaint and acting sensitively and professionally, Reddy and Selcru unleashed a trollstorm against me off-site. They trolled about being part of a "vast right-wing conspiracy". Reddy trolled about being able to read players private messages and trolled about how anyone who challenges him will "get Vince Fostered". He even went so far as to change his signature on this forum to "Grand Preceptor of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy". They trolled about appointing Pepe the Frog a Mod, despite the obvious sensitivity/controversy surrounding both the meme and the player of that name. Reddy trolled about appointing Milo Yiannopoulos a Mod, despite knowing full well of the offence caused previously with that reference. They made derisive remarks about people who raise concerns about homophobia. They trolled about concentration camps for gay people.

The off-site trolling campaign has continued since, and Reddy and Selcru have encouraged it and sometimes contributed to it. I have been repeatedly name-called as "politically correct" for having spoken up. People who have expressed views Reddy doesn't like have been trolled about being people who they aren't. There has been trolling directed at anyone who has concerns about Reddy's professionalism. There have been lies and personal attacks. There has been talk about how great it is I've been driven from the game. There has been talk about tying me up. There has been talk about mutilating my face with a scalpel. There has been talk about amputating my legs. There has been talk about making nasty Youtube videos about me. It has also been strongly intimated to me there has been more and worse going on in other chatrooms.

There has been no acknowledgement from Mods or from Wouter that there is a serious problem. Wouter and Reddy are both fully aware of the situation. It has gone on and on. Neither Reddy nor Wouter have done so much as to bother to call for it to stop or say it is wrong, even though they're on the Discord channel themselves. They have failed to give any meaningful assurance Mods should handle these situations differently in future.

A question that arises here is whether conduct of this variety is compatible with having an environment in the game where people can feel confident to come forward when they experience things or see things that should not be happening. Wouter, I understand you feel indignant about me saying I would warn people to be careful about Particracy, and you would rather I said Particracy is a great place for everybody where we should be confident issues like homophobia and racism are dealt with effectively by the people in charge. Its not that I don't support your and Reddy's efforts to discuss these problems and try to improve things, but as I indicated previously, respectfully I am one of the people for whom it is going to take some time and convincing that this is going to be credible.

What I would like to see now is for Wouter and Reddy to tell us there are going to be changes. For Reddy in particular, respectfully I would like to see him tell us that what we saw is not who he is and what he is about, that he made certain mistakes and that he is going to do things differently from now on. I would like to see him reassure players he cares about them, their views and experiences, that he wants them to feel able to trust and approach him and that in future he will do his best to handle their concerns sensitively and professionally.

[SelucianCrusader]

I'm very concerned about how people now and then manage to turn every thread into a discussion about themselves, and to be honest - that's a quite worrying narcissistic behaviour that shouldn't pay of for the person doing it - and is probably best to ignore. Still... I just felt I needed to comment this:

Selcru's well-established homophobia and how he had directed that at me, including a private message making a suggestion about me being romantically and sexually interested in 2 male players

This is complete B. S. but it's funny how Aquinas seems obsessed with bringing it up again and again, that should tell you something. I told him he seemed obsessed with players X and Y and then wrote that I don't mean that in any romantic or sexual sense, to shield myself from his constant accusations of homophobia that he was spewing upon Reddy when he disagreed with him on pretty much anything. Maybe I shouldn't have.. since he managed to twist that into horrible homophobia against him just like he had done before that with Reddy's proposed Cultural Protocols changes... maybe I should have known lol...

I'm not sure what Aquinas is really thinking bringing this up again and again, since it's actually a very awkward story about how he had sent loads of quite cringeworthy praise of a player for some time. At one point he went anonymously to a nation to establish contact with this player (who he already knew... ) without telling who it was. The result was this player resigning as NM and fled the nation. As a mod - it kinda was my job to ask what the hell was going on there? I said the exact same things to Wouter and Reddy in a mail btw.

I'm very reluctant to discuss people's private issues publicly because I don't think that's a decent thing to do, but with the post above here as a good example of what we were dealing with, I won't exactly say I'm ashamed I've discussed Aquinas' obsessive behaviour about people and issues with fellow moderators and with himself, back before I suddenly became "ze big bad evil" in his little world - a position previously held by Farsun. Aquinas has known me and Reddy for almost 5 years and it's not like he suddenly discovered that I was a "evil catholic alt-right homophobe" and yada yada or whatever he's claiming with Reddy. He's using this narrative because it suits him. "Ironically" it's the same narrative as the Swordsman troll had about him in the trolling shitstorm before he resigned.

It's actually quite funny, because in some of those early "controversial" posts I tried to discuss the problems of misusing the privilege of indignation of belonging to this or that group... and right now Aquinas is acting like a poster boy for people misusing their privilege of indignation. Alan Turing took his own life because he wasn't allowed to be gay... and a few decades later a person is seriously suggesting that two mods not having the same vision for the game as a gay ex-mod or not responding his long hectoring lists of everything they do wrong is proof of homophobia? It's quite disgusting, really...

PS: Oh if someone seriously suggested mutilating Aquinas' face or legs or whatever I strongly condemn that... but because of the guy's tendency of believing everything is about him when it isn't (especially in relation to that Discord channel). I wouldn't take it for granted.

[Zanz]

PS: Oh if someone seriously suggested mutilating Aquinas' face or legs or whatever I strongly condemn that... but because of the guy's tendency of believing everything is about him when it isn't (especially in relation to that Discord channel). I wouldn't take it for granted.

A read through of the chat logs can quite easily provide this info - it was said, and though in jest, it was still not funny, and certainly is something I can understand Aquinas' upset about.

[Mbites]

I'm very concerned about how people now and then manage to turn every thread into a discussion about themselves, and to be honest - that's a quite worrying narcissistic behaviour that shouldn't pay of for the person doing it - and is probably best to ignore. Still... I just felt I needed to comment this:

PS: Oh if someone seriously suggested mutilating Aquinas' face or legs or whatever I strongly condemn that... but because of the guy's tendency of believing everything is about him when it isn't (especially in relation to that Discord channel). I wouldn't take it for granted.

I will take the blame for that, we joked about how funny it would be if Aquinas was a patient of Lukas since he was a doctor. He said, in a jokish manner I hope, that he would do something to him. Afterwards he wrote that we "shouldnt worry he wouldnt kill him" in a ironic manner to the comment above I said "Just amputate his legs?" as a way of mocking Lukas' comment or being sarcastic/ironic. If that made @Aquinas feel uncomfortable or he took that for serious I apologise. I am sorry. That was not okay in any way.

[Reddy]

I think it's time to engage. Clearly me avoiding addressing your attacks publicly hasn't helped.

Reddy, I sense an effort to suppress discussion of recent events on Discord chat, but respectfully, if this is going to be a serious consultation, then this is not something we can entirely ignore..

I asked for those who want to discuss Discord have to create another topic and not hijack this one. This one is about a specific issue and please let it stay on that. Discord is not part of Particracy, those who venture there are responsible for their own safety. However if people want to discuss it, please create a thread in this sub-forum or the off-topic one but don't hijack this one. Some of us worked so hard to put this consultation together.

Last month I raised concerns on the forum related to both racism and homophobia, and in direct consequence was issued with a warning and then suspended, and all attempts to discuss concerns about hate speech were blocked. To my astonishment, the then-Mod Selcru then took to an unofficial Discord channel to deliver a distorted and unfair account both about what happened and about me personally. In response, I typed a short rebuttal and, amongst other things, reiterated my concerns about Selcru's well-established homophobia and how he had directed that at me, including a private message making a suggestion about me being romantically and sexually interested in 2 male players, and an incident involving him referencing me whilst proclaiming his admiration for Milo Yiannopoulos and locking a thread created by another player raising concerns about hate speech issues.

You were penalised for making several malicious, baseless and unsubstantiated character attacks. As you will recall, someone even pointed out that you were using the same tactics as the troll/s did last year. Obviously you are not one of the trolls but still it was clearly evident that you have adopted their hit and run tactics and prose.

Instead of investigating the complaint and acting sensitively and professionally, Reddy and Selcru unleashed a trollstorm against me off-site. They trolled about being part of a "vast right-wing conspiracy". Reddy trolled about being able to read players private messages and trolled about how anyone who challenges him will "get Vince Fostered". He even went so far as to change his signature on this forum to "Grand Preceptor of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy". They trolled about appointing Pepe the Frog a Mod, despite the obvious sensitivity/controversy surrounding both the meme and the player of that name. Reddy trolled about appointing Milo Yiannopoulos a Mod, despite knowing full well of the offence caused previously with that reference. They made derisive remarks about people who raise concerns about homophobia. They trolled about concentration camps for gay people.

As I've said before and you remember this well, the ''vast rightwing conspiracy" thing was about the trolls such as The Community and others who claimed that there is such a thing. You never said anything about a rightwing conspiracy. It had nothing to do with you. I think you are not appreciating the difference between trolling and joking but anyway, a small number of people complained and that's not happening anymore. I'm no longer on the main PT Discord channel.

The off-site trolling campaign has continued since, and Reddy and Selcru have encouraged it and sometimes contributed to it.

There's no trolling campaign and I have never encouraged anyone to do anything off-site or on-site which is directed at trolling another player. This trolling campaign exists only in your mind.

I have been repeatedly name-called as "politically correct" for having spoken up. People who have expressed views Reddy doesn't like have been trolled about being people who they aren't.

As I seem to recall, I actually defended you when someone called you PC. I don't think that you are politically correct. You have a hateful and vindictive agenda directed towards myself but that's hardly political correctness.

There has been trolling directed at anyone who has concerns about Reddy's professionalism. There have been lies and personal attacks. There has been talk about how great it is I've been driven from the game. There has been talk about tying me up. There has been talk about mutilating my face with a scalpel. There has been talk about amputating my legs. There has been talk about making nasty Youtube videos about me. It has also been strongly intimated to me there has been more and worse going on in other chatrooms.

I have never even heard of any of this. It's awful and perhaps you should consider contacting the police and reporting this.

There has been no acknowledgement from Mods or from Wouter that there is a serious problem. Wouter and Reddy are both fully aware of the situation. It has gone on and on. Neither Reddy nor Wouter have done so much as to bother to call for it to stop or say it is wrong, even though they're on the Discord channel themselves. They have failed to give any meaningful assurance Mods should handle these situations differently in future.

As said above, I never heard of any of things you claim have been done to you. I've left Discord, I left after you followed there and carried on with your personal attacks on me. I don't think that being Moderator means I should be subject to the treatment you've subjected me to.

For Reddy in particular, respectfully I would like to see him tell us that what we saw is not who he is and what he is about, that he made certain mistakes and that he is going to do things differently from now on. I would like to see him reassure players he cares about them, their views and experiences, that he wants them to feel able to trust and approach him and that in future he will do his best to handle their concerns sensitively and professionally.

My record as Moderator should speak for itself. I have repeatedly penalised players for homophobic and racist verbal abuse harassment and any kind of bullying. I believe I have acted professionally as Mod in the course of my duties. It is true that I tended to relax too much on Discord and joke about a lot. This is hardly new, I've always been that way. I hope that we can wrap up this consultation soon and have some new rules.

* * *

PS: I don't know if you got my message from Zanz but basically you have won. You won't have me to kick around anymore very soon and you may rejoice at that. I absolutely refuse to remain in Particracy in any capacity if I have to be terrorised by one person because he doesn't like the reforms I've made and choose to terrorise me with baseless personal attacks. It's so bizarre because you literally begged me twice to serve as Mod when no one else wanted it. I was foolish enough to accept twice. You have made so many untrue and unfair disparaging personal attacks against me that now you even have some players throwing your smears at me as an excuse to violate the rules. I can hardly make a ruling that's not questioned because my character has attacked so viciously no one believes me to be capable of any kind of sincerity.

I like the game a lot but not enough to stay and endure this kind of treatment. Something has to happen or change. One of us must go and if it has to be me, let it be. It's odd how a total stranger can terrorise you and put you through extreme mental anguish over an online game.

[soysauce]

Now, I look at the Discord, a lot of it is slurs or blatantly anti-intellectual nonsense.

Which Discord are you on?

I only knew of one, I don't suppose you could show us the other one?

[Polites]

I feel that a lot of these recent conflicts would have been avoided if Moderator anonymity were returned to the game.

[SelucianCrusader]

I feel that a lot of these recent conflicts would have been avoided if Moderator anonymity were returned to the game.

Fully agree. Best way to do this would be to simply have a "Moderation" account here at the forums, so that people don't start guessing who's behind the different aliases. That's actually something that could be implemented now right away with Reddy's successor(s).

On another matter, the political leanings of moderators shouldn't matter in any case, and have never done so in PT before one person who has the habit of referring to himself by majestic plural started this circus. I could think of a few good replacements for Reddy who are anything but conservative like myself IRL. I've stated previously, one of my own favourite previous mods was and is JBN/UniSocAll. He was a left-winger, quite a die-hard atheist, Pro-Europeanist IIRC, and there would probably be a lot we didn't agree on regarding RL politics. But damn, he was a great and encouraging player and a great moderator, and his and Liu's reforms were much needed. He could be a pain to argue against about RL stuff in the off-topic section, but he was a friendly and encouraging player in the game, and I'll always respect him for that. I'd gladly take him any day over someone incompetent whose opinions about RL stuff are closer to mine.

[Aquinas]

In my previous two posts on the this thread I raised issues about how Moderators need to set an example and help create an environment where people feel able to come forward with concerns, and how they need to feel able to feel confident their concerns will be addressed sensitively and fairly. Although there was resistance to that being brought up, this was a point that desperately had to be made in this discussion, for reasons that will now be overwhelmingly obvious. In particular, it ought to be clear now that dealing with hate speech and offensive speech is about more than just the wording of rules. It is about the culture we have here and particularly about the personal lead our Moderators give us.

Regrettably, the thread has since been derailed by a series of hysterical and ludicrous personal attacks by those determined to evade responsibility for their actions and obstruct a full and meaningful consultation from taking place.

Recent posts by Reddy and Selcru should on no account be accepted at face value as they are filled with gross distortion and misinformation. At this point, I am not planning to go through all of the false claims and accusations publicly, although I emphasise this does not mean they are true and does not mean they cannot be rather easily disproved.

Just two points I will mention. Firstly, contrary to what has been claimed, I have never encouraged anyone to smear Reddy or violate the rules and I am not aware of any cases at all where anyone has somehow done that on account of me. If anything like that has happened it is unfortunate, but as I say, I really have no idea what is being referred to there, so maybe someone could fill me in (privately would probably be best). Secondly, as a few of you know, when I first rejoined Particracy this year it was against a background where certain threats had been made against me, and so to begin with I rejoined "anonymously" in-game (although I had informed both Moderators). I did not like doing this, but after what had happened before, this is what I felt more comfortable doing at first. This did not go on for very long; I fairly quickly returned as Aquinas. However, I did nothing somehow sinister or against the rules, nothing anybody else wouldn't have been entitled to do and nothing the Moderators felt any need to actually contact me about. The mumbo-jumbo accusations levied at me about this, as about a number of other things, are more than bizarre.

I am saddened by Reddy's planned departure, as I am sure will be others. It remains my view that the large majority of his performance as a Moderator has been very good, and it is only more recently serious problems have emerged. Contrary to what is being suggested, I did not ask for his resignation or want his resignation. As I wrote only yesterday, my hope was that he would give us the reassurances we need, acknowledge the problems that have taken place and move to rectify them. It is disappointing he has not managed to do this, but even so, I want to thank him for all of the time and work he has put into Particracy. Also, since I presume he has agreed to stay on until replacements are found, I want to thank him for doing that, and acknowledge that whilst recent events have been hard on me, I appreciate they must have been hard on him as well. Although I will not necessarily guarantee not to defend myself against further character assassinations, I would not want to make the rest of his period in charge any more difficult than it is already going to be, and I would urge that on anybody else as well.

I'm grateful to Mbites for his apology and also for the short conversation we had privately. I do feel we maybe need a broader conversation about how tackling offensive speech and hate speech is something we *all* have a social responsibility to try to do, both Moderators and players, both on-site and in unofficial Particracy-related places off-site. If we're going to deal with this problem, we all need to do our part. Chatrooms, for example, by their very nature are always going to be wilder and more free-flowing than the forum, but that should not mean they should be anything-goes. The admins ought to keep at least some degree of order, and if they don't, ultimately there should come a point where players consider boycotting them.

Suggestions have been made about bringing back the old system of "Moderator anonymity", where players did not know the forum and in-game usernames of Moderators. This did not work well in the past and would not work well now. Nor would it have prevented any of the recent problems. To some extent, calls for anonymity are a lazy distraction from facing up to issues regarding how Moderators conduct themselves. As well as sowing distrust and creating potential for certain abuses, Moderator anonymity would simply not be practical in a community like ours. The regular forum community is not that large. People would end up guessing or finding out who the Moderators are - as has happened in the past. With Discord channels out there, it would be easier than ever for information and rumours to leak out. Please trust me, we don't want to go there. I also want to point out that on occasions, the old anonymity system was enforced with certain players being threatened that if they revealed to anyone the in-game identities of the Moderators, they would be removed from the game, and in my strong view that is not a situation which sets the best context for the relationship between players and Moderators.

[FPC]

It is very regrettable that this situation has resulted in both Mods leaving, however I feel it is now time to move on and start afresh. Mistakes have been made on all sides of the arguement, but now we definelty need to begin rebuilding the relations between players and bring the community back together. I feel moderation must be open and honest from the start and promise to remain unbiased, and fair, and not to let their own personal views or relationships with players to get in the way. Additionally I feel players need to accept the decisions of the mods and trust that they are the right one. (I would suggest some sort of appeals court made up of 8 players and Wouter, to examine people claiming moderation have made the wrong decision so it is possible to get a Mod's decision reversed.) And in future hopefully we will be able to avoid this.

I am very sad to see Reddy and SelCru go they have both served the game well and I wish them all the best in the future and I hope they can begin to fully enjoy the game again in future.