CULTURAL MAP DEBATE THREAD

[General.M]

I'm not taking sides, but when this map will be implemented, Wouters new game will also be ready. Most players in the english nations are not active RP'ers, and will probably leave classic and go to the other game

[Phil Piratin]

Returning to this point, I've just done a quick look through the Nations list, and here are the players numbers for the English CPs:

Hutori - 8
Kalistan - 6
Kirlawa - 8
Likatonia - 8
Luthori - 8

Malivia (allows English names...) - 8
Mordusia - 8
Rutania - 6

These numbers are all higher-than-average, and point to the fact that there is significant player demand for English nations where English parties are welcome. .

Fair enough but I'll do a similar cherry-picking exercise to prove that the supposed correlation is weak at best.

Badara - 7
Egelion - 8
Indrala - 7
Istalia - 8
Kazulia - 6
Sekowo - 7
Valruzia - 6

No one is denying that there are some very inaccessible cultures but cultural diversity on the whole is a positive for the game in my view. As for the reasons why players pick different countries, I think they are too complex and personal.

Except that very obvious really is cherry-picking, because its picking out the non-English CPd nations which have the most players at this particular moment in time. We could also look at a number of non-English CPd nations which have much lower player numbers. For example:

Aldegar - 1
Beiteynu - 3
Deltaria - 3
Dankuk - 3
Endralon - 2
Hawu - 2
Jelbania - 2
Kafuristan - 2
Kalopia - 2
Keymon - 3
Kundrati - 1
Lourenne - 1
Rildanor - 3
Saridan - 3
Vanuku - 2

By contrast, ALL of the nations with English CPs have high player numbers, as do a lot of the Culturally Open nations as well.

My point stands. Asking players to name characters in certain languages is not some kind of difficult imposition.

This is more significant than you are willing to appreciate.

Yet player numbers have virtually doubled in the past 18 months or so. At one point, we had more than 300 players. Clearly whatever squeeze has happened is having no effect on attracting players to this game. I think we can easily agree there that there's no need for any worries for the future of the game on that account.

As I explained, maintaining and (hopefully!) increasing player numbers means we need to be careful about squeezing the English nations too far. English nations are the first port of call for a lot of new players. If they are going to be squeezed, I hope the squeeze will not be on the scale that has been proposed in the current "Cultural Map".

[Elf]

If I where to be a bit nitpicking, I'd request to have the Selucian population of the coast of Bazileum in Pontesi, to be recognised as well.

You've also seriously gotta fix the "head" of Pontesi, the map cuts it off before it ends...

[jamescfm]

you also did earlier with the "essays" remark).

Long passages of text are not appealing to read, I don't think that's a controversial proposition.

As it happens, I almost always play in non-English nations and have not played in an English nation for a long time, but that does not stop me from recognising the needs of players who prefer to play in those nations.

If you don't play in English nations, that makes me wonder why you seem to think you know what players who do play in English nations want? I do often play in English nations (I am right now) and the fact those nations are "English" is totally irrelevant to why I choose them. Please stop acting as though you are the protector of some unrepresented silent proletariat.

Who decides whether a culture is illogical and nonsensical? If a culture is somehow illogical and nonsensical, might it maybe be even more illogical and nonsensical to suddenly replace it with something else with no explanation?

Moderation. No.

Second You don't deserve and answer because I and the rest of the player base of my nation did not deserve to be consulted in the making of this culture map. Me saying do the change is more than fair

If you want Moderation to make a change then give them a reason to do so. It borders on immaturity for you to say that they should simply do it because you ask them to. If you're not going to provide a reason then it seems to me that you are forfeiting your right to be consulted. Nothing wrong with that but it seems rather counter-productive.

[Phil Piratin]

As it happens, I almost always play in non-English nations and have not played in an English nation for a long time, but that does not stop me from recognising the needs of players who prefer to play in those nations.

If you don't play in English nations, that makes me wonder why you seem to think you know what players who do play in English nations want? I do often play in English nations (I am right now) and the fact those nations are "English" is totally irrelevant to why I choose them. Please stop acting as though you are the protector of some unrepresented silent proletariat.

I have spent substantial periods playing in English nations in the past, and I also know and have known many players who play in English nations. I also observe what goes on in the game, and have done so for a long time. So far as I am aware, it is permitted for me to express my viewpoints about the representation of English nations on the new proposed Culture Map, and I am disappointed you appear to have such a serious problem with that.

Also, I wish to place on record that, not for the first time in this thread, I feel very much like an effort is being made to pressure me out of the discussion and make this consultation uncomfortable for those who have doubts about the reforms that are being proposed. It is not a reassuring sign that the person Moderation entrusted to draw up this Cultural Map is now going around hounding anyone who dares to disagree with it (and I understand this has been going on off-forum as well). Is this how everything is going to be from now on?

Second You don't deserve and answer because I and the rest of the player base of my nation did not deserve to be consulted in the making of this culture map. Me saying do the change is more than fair

If you want Moderation to make a change then give them a reason to do so. It borders on immaturity for you to say that they should simply do it because you ask them to. If you're not going to provide a reason then it seems to me that you are forfeiting your right to be consulted. Nothing wrong with that but it seems rather counter-productive.

If anyone would like an insight into what Particracy risks becoming like after this Cultural Map is imposed, I really recommend studying the exchange on this thread between James and Corvo, and also the experience I had with Moderation about the New Englia fiasco here.

[Elf]

Perhaps Moderation could consider eliminating the German-majority areas of Aloria as well? I mean.. now with the Draddwyr visibly gone from Dranland - we don't want such a historically important culture potentially absorbed into German Aloria as well. There are already too many germanophone countries... in my humble opinion.. (don't tell our friend Auditorii... )

Overall though, I want to get on record that I appreciate all the effort Moderation has put into this, and I'm sure most of us are able to voice our opinions through having a constructive dialogue, and suggest improvements without any mud-slinging against friends and volunteers or imagined "clique mafias", which we've kinda had enough of in the past.

[Corvo Attano]

you also did earlier with the "essays" remark).

Long passages of text are not appealing to read, I don't think that's a controversial proposition.

As it happens, I almost always play in non-English nations and have not played in an English nation for a long time, but that does not stop me from recognising the needs of players who prefer to play in those nations.

If you don't play in English nations, that makes me wonder why you seem to think you know what players who do play in English nations want? I do often play in English nations (I am right now) and the fact those nations are "English" is totally irrelevant to why I choose them. Please stop acting as though you are the protector of some unrepresented silent proletariat.

Who decides whether a culture is illogical and nonsensical? If a culture is somehow illogical and nonsensical, might it maybe be even more illogical and nonsensical to suddenly replace it with something else with no explanation?

Moderation. No.

Second You don't deserve and answer because I and the rest of the player base of my nation did not deserve to be consulted in the making of this culture map. Me saying do the change is more than fair

If you want Moderation to make a change then give them a reason to do so. It borders on immaturity for you to say that they should simply do it because you ask them to. If you're not going to provide a reason then it seems to me that you are forfeiting your right to be consulted. Nothing wrong with that but it seems rather counter-productive.

Well then if this culture map passes unchanged you and the rest if the moderation can consider Malivia to live in its own dimension because we will continue to RP as we have RPed and will not abide a map that we did not consent to in which we made minor suggestion that apparently is too much for the creator of the map. Who wants me to explain stuff to him while he doesn't care about what he draws on a map they want to make obligatory.

K. Sure whatever call me when you actually want to consult the player base and accommodate us.

[Phil Piratin]

It is worth highlighting that the proposed Cultural Map makes bigger changes to some nations than the ones proposed for Malivia. Some examples I've noticed:

- Hawu becomes German

- Solentia becomes Italian and Romansh

- Mordusia becomes Javanese

- Vorona becomes Igbo

- Lodamun becomes Utahn and Estonian

- Gaduridos becomes Afro-Caribbean

- Tukarali becomes part-Kurdish

- Kundrati becomes Basque

- Davostan becomes Finnish & Sami

- Talmoria become Lingala

- Tukarali becomes part Kurdish

[jamescfm]

Corvo, I’ll extend the offer once again. If you want the map to be changed, explain what should change and why. Moderation don’t have mind-reading powers. It’s getting to the point where you’re coming across as childish.

In response to Phil, several players in this thread hold an opinion that you don’t agree with. If you can’t cope with that then that’s your own problem. I think it should be a great shame if yet another team of Moderators is driven to insanity because certain players don’t want to see reform happen. It is for that reason that I am so empathically in favour of these changes, even though I disagree with a lot of the map (for example I feel there are far too many American and German countries). It’s called compromise.

[Phil Piratin]

Corvo, I’ll extend the offer once again. If you want the map to be changed, explain what should change and why. Moderation don’t have mind-reading powers. It’s getting to the point where you’re coming across as childish.

In response to Phil, several players in this thread hold an opinion that you don’t agree with. If you can’t cope with that then that’s your own problem. I think it should be a great shame if yet another team of Moderators is driven to insanity because certain players don’t want to see reform happen. It is for that reason that I am so empathically in favour of these changes, even though I disagree with a lot of the map (for example I feel there are far too many American and German countries). It’s called compromise.

I am perfectly able to cope with the fact that of the small number of members who have participated in the consultation so far, most voices have been in favour of the proposed reform. The fact I am in a minority, at least at the moment, does not, I hope, mean that I am not at liberty to express my views. May I remind you, also, that this consultation is in its early stages, and is not scheduled to finish until at least 13th March.

I need to repeat, again, that I feel very much that there is an effort going on to pressure me out from participating in this discussion and make it toxic for anyone like myself who has concerns about the plans.

Corvo, I’ll extend the offer once again. If you want the map to be changed, explain what should change and why. Moderation don’t have mind-reading powers. It’s getting to the point where you’re coming across as childish.

Respectfully, the attitude you have been showing towards Corvo has been unnecessarily confrontational and is becoming offensive. The only good thing I can say about it is that it provides a classic case study for why allowing people to impose a "Cultural Map" on the entire playerbase is likely to result in a considerable degree of high-handedness and acrimony.