Consultation on Different Population Caps

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Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Polites » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:23 am

So as you may all have noticed, almost all nations in the game have almost the same population, that is approximately 99 million. That is because all but two nations (Vorona and Keymon) have their population capped at below 100 million. There is some random variation every now and then, but the population never exceeds the population cap. Numerous players over the years have found this to be unrealistic and there have been suggestions to modify the population cap, but none of those was accepted until now, partially because there was no universally-agreed criterion for determining population differences.

But recently the Moderation team has decided to restart a consultation on this topic. We spoke to Wouter and he let us know that it is possible to change the population cap and implement different caps for each nation. So we came up with a number of criteria that we could use to fairly and consistently determine what the different population caps should be. Our methodology was as follows: first, for each nation we determined the Real-Life countries or territories that best match the In-Game Nation's climate, using the wikia and other sources of information for the nation's climate. Next we obtained information on the climate and population densities of all RL nations and territories, from a variety of online sources; in the case of large countries we tried to obtain that information for various sub-regions (like European Russia, Southern United States, Northeast China). We then used the combined population density of up to three RL territories and countries, selected based on plausible similarity in climate and other geographic features, to compute the population of the PT nation (given that we know the area). After that we added a 15% bonus for the top-ranking economies according to the Economic Rankings. And lastly but most importantly, we requested feedback from the Global Role-Play Committee, who reviewed the numbers and provided their own suggestions and alteration. During this last step the numbers were altered to take into account RP, past history, plausibility, and balance. Since our initial criterion was strictly based on climate, which on its own does not explain population densities, the numbers required some significant adjustments in several nations, to account for things like a history of immigration, high levels of urbanization, serving as either a source or a destination for refugees, economic growth or economic decline, genocides, dictatorships, or wars, and the amount and quality of RP.

The final numbers have been updated in this sheet, specifically in the first tab. The list of RL nations and territories which were used to calculate the new population densities is in the third tab. There are some pivot tables and a graph in the second tab to make it easier to visualize the data.

The actual numbers we suggest are below:

Indrala: 306,174,641
Malivia: 203,397,251
Hulstria: 174,964,697
Istalia: 146,694,525
Talmoria: 139,431,327
Dorvik: 133,203,018
Aldegar: 130,495,554
Dundorf: 124,321,515
Valruzia: 124,201,950
Trigunia: 121,536,015
Luthori: 121,292,100
New Endralon: 119,736,352
Hawu Mumenhes: 116,361,591
Lourenne: 109,156,419
Baltusia: 102,195,322
Rutania: 100,712,651
Vanuku: 100,459,068
Tukarali: 99,086,778
Mordusia: 94,744,518
Selucia: 93,580,142
Sekowo: 88,501,606
Lodamun: 86,761,485
Beluzia: 85,343,517
Zardugal: 81,140,960
Deltaria: 79,371,977
Kalistan: 74,254,423
Narikaton: 71,494,345
Endralon: 69,452,571
Hutori: 65,815,242
Pontesi: 59,936,717
Kanjor: 56,997,456
Likatonia: 54,919,695
Kazulia: 54,522,933
Hobrazia: 52,213,117
Jakania: 50,993,654
Barmenistan: 50,976,332
Cildania: 48,025,825
Kundrati: 46,186,284
Gaduridos: 43,601,839
Kalopia: 43,583,317
Beiteynu: 41,289,613
Egelion: 40,890,141
Cobura: 40,217,509
Saridan: 39,200,195
Solentia: 38,447,848
Badara: 36,176,257
Dolgava: 35,262,248
Alduria: 28,345,365
Rildanor: 26,997,456
Aloria: 23,784,559
Kafuristan: 23,257,903
Telamon: 21,351,904
Jelbania: 18,409,031
Klavia Okeano: 17,731,494
Kirlawa: 15,745,551
Dankuk: 13,938,931
Vorona: 13,910,152
Davostan: 13,207,205

So we are eagerly waiting for your suggestions and/or criticisms. If there is a consensus for changing the population caps, with these numbers or some modified version of them, we will then ask Wouter to implement the new numbers.

We will leave this consultation open for two weeks, so until the 15th of June 2018.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Yolo04 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:18 pm

I like this idea
It would allow better RP especially around military and infrastructure
Also can we have a list of 3rd world nations populations pls
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby EdmundS » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:28 pm

Most nations should probably have smaller populations, especially those that have been RPed as highly developed.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Nasania » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:36 pm

I would like to lodge a protest that Dankuk's population numbers are ridiculously small. Dankuk is based on Korea(which has a population of 50 million in South and 25 million in the north)and is much bigger on the map than Klavia(a tiny island). I think 40-60 million would be more realistic number.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Reddy » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:12 pm

I am in favour of this reform. Just a few questions.

- how would the radical transformation of a country's CPs affect its cap? Would a country or its players be able to apply for a revision of its cap in such a case?
- will rankings remain if this adopted? I feel this would make them quite obsolete particularly the military ones.
- won't this lead to the slaughter one of PT's few remaining holy cows - never allowing any country to become a hyperpower? indrala and/or Malivia among others, could legitimately claim to be hyperpowers if they gain the highest ranking. Perhaps the differences should be less wide, unrealistic it may be?
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby lewiselder1 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:20 pm

Yolo04 wrote:Also can we have a list of 3rd world nations populations pls


I'll have a look into it, but might have to do this after the first world nations numbers are implemented.

Nasania wrote:I would like to lodge a protest that Dankuk's population numbers are ridiculously small. Dankuk is based on Korea(which has a population of 50 million in South and 25 million in the north)and is much bigger on the map than Klavia(a tiny island). I think 40-60 million would be more realistic number.


Hm, will take a look into it. There was only a 10% decrease from the original numbers from the GRC, due to war, conflict, low rankings, likely leading to a lack of immigration etc. but will review if it needs an increase closer to your suggestion :)

Reddy wrote:I am in favour of this reform. Just a few questions.

- how would the radical transformation of a country's CPs affect its cap? Would a country or its players be able to apply for a revision of its cap in such a case?
- will rankings remain if this adopted? I feel this would make them quite obsolete particularly the military ones.
- won't this lead to the slaughter one of PT's few remaining holy cows - never allowing any country to become a hyperpower? indrala and/or Malivia among others, could legitimately claim to be hyperpowers if they gain the highest ranking. Perhaps the differences should be less wide, unrealistic it may be?


1. I believe that the CP probably would affect its cap, yes. Perhaps these should all be reviewed alongside the rankings, i.e. at the same times? Ultimately the mod's decision though.

2. As above, I would propose these are reviewed simultaneously with the rankings, and taken into account alongside them, though I think the current rankings should remain in place until then. Again, mods decision I suppose!

3. Will leave this one to others haha. I see your point, though.

Thanks to all for the feedback so quickly haha!
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby QV73 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:27 pm

Nasania wrote:I would like to lodge a protest that Dankuk's population numbers are ridiculously small. Dankuk is based on Korea(which has a population of 50 million in South and 25 million in the north)and is much bigger on the map than Klavia(a tiny island). I think 40-60 million would be more realistic number.


Being culturally based on Korea and being Korea are two very different things. South Korea is more developed than Dankuk is meant to be, and as for NK that's just a long list of anomalies and strange business to factor in. There's also historical reasons for Korea's population.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby lewiselder1 » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:33 pm

QV73 wrote:
Nasania wrote:I would like to lodge a protest that Dankuk's population numbers are ridiculously small. Dankuk is based on Korea(which has a population of 50 million in South and 25 million in the north)and is much bigger on the map than Klavia(a tiny island). I think 40-60 million would be more realistic number.


Being culturally based on Korea and being Korea are two very different things. South Korea is more developed than Dankuk is meant to be, and as for NK that's just a long list of anomalies and strange business to factor in. There's also historical reasons for Korea's population.


I second this. Will still look into it, but this is what I’m leaning towards.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Nasania » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:50 pm

QV73 wrote:
Nasania wrote:I would like to lodge a protest that Dankuk's population numbers are ridiculously small. Dankuk is based on Korea(which has a population of 50 million in South and 25 million in the north)and is much bigger on the map than Klavia(a tiny island). I think 40-60 million would be more realistic number.


Being culturally based on Korea and being Korea are two very different things. South Korea is more developed than Dankuk is meant to be, and as for NK that's just a long list of anomalies and strange business to factor in. There's also historical reasons for Korea's population.


Yes it is different, but considering the long history of Dankuk, a population smaller than a tiny island seems rather ridiculous. Looking at the Spreadsheet it seems the population density was based on a part of Siberia, which I will say is too far north for Dankuk(Kazulia which is next door should have a comparable size) and doesn't have much of a southern coastline(Dankuk does have a substantial southern coastline). Egelion is further north and somehow has a larger population?? I can see comparing Dankuk to North Korea or Manchuria, But Siberia seems a poor fit.

To Lewis: Thank you I appreciate your attention to this matter.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Kubrick » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:24 pm

I think Vanuku needs 12 more inhabitants.

Jokes aside, loving this. Only genuine comment would be, doesn't this make Indrala very OP in terms in IC balance? They have more than double the population of number four on that list! Spreadsheet was interesting to look at, though missing the steppes with Vanuku. Nonetheless very satisfactory to look at.
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