Consultation on Different Population Caps

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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Maxington » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:10 pm

I'd just like to know the thought process behind how certain nations have varying populations
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby lewiselder1 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:22 pm

Maxington wrote:I'd just like to know the thought process behind how certain nations have varying populations


I think Polites detailed some of that in his first posit here. Primarily it’s regarding relatively recent RP and how we think they’d affect the population; climate; and where reasonable we made changes depending on some of the things you’ve seen here, such as if the population density seemed ridiculous or it clashed with the history. (So if a nation RP’d a food shortage but is in a relatively bountiful climate, you’d expect it to have a bigger population. As an example.) It’s not the most hard-coded scientific approach, but it’s not a hard science to decide these types of things methinks.

Some of the others may be able to provide more detailed responses as they may have took a more active role in general than myself.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Polites » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:49 am

lewiselder1 wrote:
Maxington wrote:I'd just like to know the thought process behind how certain nations have varying populations


I think Polites detailed some of that in his first posit here. Primarily it’s regarding relatively recent RP and how we think they’d affect the population; climate; and where reasonable we made changes depending on some of the things you’ve seen here, such as if the population density seemed ridiculous or it clashed with the history. (So if a nation RP’d a food shortage but is in a relatively bountiful climate, you’d expect it to have a bigger population. As an example.) It’s not the most hard-coded scientific approach, but it’s not a hard science to decide these types of things methinks.

Some of the others may be able to provide more detailed responses as they may have took a more active role in general than myself.


Yep that's a good description of the process we used. Mathy climate-based population density calculations + more "subjective" RP assessments.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Doc » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:28 am

To add my .02 Kalistani Rubles

I just want to say, first, I really like the idea of changing the populations of the countries. i have long thought that having 99 million in every country, and especially 99million that never really moved off that number, was more than a little unrealistic. I'm glad they can be changed.

Second: If RP is taken into account, I'd like to personally make an appeal for Kalistan. I left at the beginning of 2017. Life got busy and so forth, whatever. But Kalistan's history is that of a refugee nation. Our country has been the recipient of immigrants and refugees for ever. If that counts for anything. Plus, our RP has suffered since right after I left, but that's because I was carrying much of it (With excellent help from our friend James) for like 200 years. And then it went dark for a period. I don't know if that figures in, but hell, I thought I'd make the pitch.

Third, and by far most importantly, NO WAY does a country with a climate based on Jamaica, Cuba, and Haiti have a population density higher than a country with a climate based on Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore. Singapore and Indonesia, or more specifically, the Island of Java, (which wikitravel reports is population density of 940 people per square km) are chocked full of people, and Cuba and Jamaica are relatively sparsely populated outside a handful of major cities. I know that there was a discount based on RP and such, but how does Indrala have that many people if the primary criteria is climate? I am not necessarily lobbying against the numbers you all came up with, but come the hell on. I've been to Jamaica. No way does that country approximate the swarm that is the world's most densely populated island. I'm sure the math adds up, but there is realistically, like in a lived sense, a HUGE difference between 2.7 million people on tiny Jamaica, half of which live in Kingston, and 261 million on relatively large Indonesia. Conceptually, this suggests that the density is what causes the population, and that seems backward to me. So perhaps the authors will explain how they arrived at this crazy high number for Indrala. I'm curious, from a purely scientific perspective, because I cannot read if then code in excel.

To buttress my point, see, for example, where most people live in Indonesia. I would compare the population of Jamaica to the population of specifically Java if I were doing it, which means that Aldegar should be the absolutely highest populated nation in Terra and not Indrala. Matter of fact, on this basis alone, I would take issue of probably 8 of your top 10.

A Density map of Indonesia: Image

A map that shows something similar to that, but in Jamaica: Image

About half of Jamaica's population lives in Kingston. Jamaica is 10,900 square Kilometers. if you subtract Kingston, Jamaica is a sparsely populated country. Most of Indonesia's population lives on the Island of Java. Java is 128,300 square Kilometers. Java itself has a population density of 940 people per square Kilometers. Subtract Java and Indonesia is a sparsely populated country. Java is not just super densely populated, but it is Super populated, and its an island like 11 times the size of Jamaica. Jakarta puts Kingston to shame in terms of both figures. And then, that is not even the most densely populated part of the Island!

And for the hell of it, lets throw a map in of little, but apparently densely packed Denmark, keeping in mind that the gradation between 50-100 and 100-250 is NOT the same as the gradation between 250-1000 and 1000-10300 people per sq km (I assume). And yet, Denmark is Denmark is 2.2 million square miles, and its population density is 131 people per square mile. Subtract Copenhagen (population density of about 6800 people per square km,) and Denmark becomes basically like Nebraska. So a country with a climate based on Denmark should not be in the top 10 in Terra.

Image

Anyway, thank you all for the work on this. Whatever the result, I think its a step in the correct direction, personally, and I appreciate it.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Polites » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:58 am

That's some very good points you bring here, and I wouldn't mind seeing Kalistan grow a bit due to its refugee history, although that happened quite a long time ago.

In what concerns the difference between Indrala and Aldegar, the population densities are the same as for the RL territories (except for a slight 7% bonus for Indrala). Much of the difference comes from the fact that Indrala is much bigger than Aldegar (1.6 times bigger to be exact) so even with the same density Indrala would end up with a much higher population. Your point about the distribution of populations within different countries makes a lot of sense, and it isn't really something we took into account for the climate-based population, except for when we broke up large countries like China, Russia, or the US into sub-regions. Eventually we may end up working on different population caps at the province level, and then we may introduce discrepancies like Kingston vs. the rest of Jamaica or Java vs. the rest of Indonesia. As Lewis said though, this isn't an exact science, and climate alone does not determine population density. That's also why we took RP into account, including, for instance, a history of heavy urbanization.
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Re: Consultation on Different Population Caps

Postby Doc » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:02 pm

Polites wrote:That's some very good points you bring here, and I wouldn't mind seeing Kalistan grow a bit due to its refugee history, although that happened quite a long time ago.

In what concerns the difference between Indrala and Aldegar, the population densities are the same as for the RL territories (except for a slight 7% bonus for Indrala). Much of the difference comes from the fact that Indrala is much bigger than Aldegar (1.6 times bigger to be exact) so even with the same density Indrala would end up with a much higher population. Your point about the distribution of populations within different countries makes a lot of sense, and it isn't really something we took into account for the climate-based population, except for when we broke up large countries like China, Russia, or the US into sub-regions. Eventually we may end up working on different population caps at the province level, and then we may introduce discrepancies like Kingston vs. the rest of Jamaica or Java vs. the rest of Indonesia. As Lewis said though, this isn't an exact science, and climate alone does not determine population density. That's also why we took RP into account, including, for instance, a history of heavy urbanization.


Right on. Its really no skin off my teeth, especially since it is merely for RP purposes. If it affected the economy of the country, that might be different.

Anyway, those points aside, I want to reiterate, I appreciate you all making this effort, and once the skeleton is in place, it is much easier to tweak it here and here. Good work, yall. :)
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