We need to talk about Endralon

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We need to talk about Endralon

Postby Aquinas » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:39 am

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=6370&p=140459#p140417
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7233&p=140599#p140555
http://classic.particracy.net/viewbill. ... lid=582240

As quite a few people will already be aware, there is a situation developing in Endralon, where a player has removed the Hungarian Cultural Protocol by successfully applying to make the nation Culturally Open. There is now a plan to give the nation a northern English Cultural Protocol and to rename the nation from Endralon to "Erlingland".

Moderators explained on Discord that they do not consider the Game Rules to leave them general discretion to reject a request for Culturally Open status, so long as it meets the standard criteria (ie. motion passed with 2/3rds majority of players with seats).

Polites has now added:

Polites wrote:the way the rules are set atm there's no requirement for CP changes or removals in one nation to take into account other nations. We'll try to find a way to address this issue in the next batch of rule updates.


I would like to point out that before the Game Rules were drastically rewritten earlier this year, it was possible for Moderators to take broad RP considerations into account when it came to updating Cultural Protocols, creating new Cultural Protocols and removing Cultural Protocols.

Specifically...

With regards to updating Cultural Protocols, the previous rules insisted:

16.5.1 Whilst significant changes should always be justified by role-play, where certain factors are present, Moderation reserves the discretion to adopt a more restrictive or a more relaxed approach to proposed changes. These factors include:

- Where it is deemed to be desirable to protect or promote cultures regarded as under-represented in the game world.

- Where it is deemed to be desirable to limit or reduce cultures regarded as over-represented in the game world.

- Where there are issues involved with a culture not being sufficiently accessible to players.

- Where players not present in the nation but with a strong connection to it are deemed to have presented a strong case. In particular, the nation's recent players, as well as players in the surrounding nations, may be deemed to have a legitimate interest.


With regards to creating new Cultural Protocols, the previous rules left accepting these to the discretion of Moderators, insisted on a mandatory minimum 96 hour wait before any decision could be made, and pointed out, for example:

17.1.2 Players are not necessarily required to provide a plausible backstory for how the nation's cultural background developed. However, the provision of a plausible backstory may be a factor in whether Moderation approves the Cultural Protocol if players in surrounding nations question its appropriateness for their region of the game map.


With regards to removing Cultural Protocols, under the old "Cultural Eras" system, there would always be a full public consultation on the forum before any nation was set to Culturally Open status. Similarly, once that system was abolished and the procedure for making nations Culturally Open was introduced, there was still an expectation that Moderation had discretion over whether to grant the request or not, and, for example, there was a mandatory minimum 96 hour waiting time before any decision could be taken.

In the light of this, I feel it is right to ask a few questions:

(1) Why did Moderation decide earlier this year to remove its discretion to take RP factors into account when it comes to requests for Cultural Protocol updates, creating new Cultural Protocols and removing Cultural Protocols?

(2) Why did Moderation not properly explain the change at the time? From my recollection, at the time it was difficult to see whether or not there had been any implied changes in this particular area, because the new Game Rules document looked largely like just a massively abbreviated version of the previous one. ie. It was difficult to tell whether the missed out details were significant, or whether the implication was they had not changed.

(3) Given the concerns some players have expressed, and given the fact a rules re-write is apparently coming up, would Moderation consider making an exception by at the very least delaying the implementation of any new "northern England" Cultural Protocol in Endralon and delaying the proposed renaming of Endralon to "Erlingland"? I personally feel there is a case for doing this. At least if Endralon is left as Culturally Open, it will still be possible for players to RP Hungarian culture there, if they wish to do so.

On a side note, this is nothing personal against Edward, and I apologise if he feels caught up in the "crossfire" of all of this, as it were. This isn't about him; this is about a much broader, technical issue to do with how the game is administered. BTW I happen to think Edmund is a nice guy, with a lot of imagination and creativity, and an at times quite brilliant sense of humour.

(4) Along with some other incidents, I feel this episode highlights the fact that there were serious problems relating to the rule rewrite performed earlier in the year. Would Moderation be willing to acknowledge this, and be willing to learn from those mistakes when it comes to the upcoming rewrite? This does really, really need to be done carefully, and with a better consultation than the one we got last time.
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby cm9777 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:31 am

The specified dispute is being sorted out at the moment. The new additions planned for the rules will take into account this. No rule system is perfect however I am confident that they were a step in the right direction and with the additions planned it will become even more apparent. I admit I do not remember much about the last consultation but do recall it dragging on for too long meaning people lost interest. I think its fair to go for a more concise implementation.

Happy to take feedback so if there were any other issues with that implementation/consultation please let us know.
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby Aquinas » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:08 pm

cm9777 wrote:The specified dispute is being sorted out at the moment. The new additions planned for the rules will take into account this. No rule system is perfect however I am confident that they were a step in the right direction and with the additions planned it will become even more apparent. I admit I do not remember much about the last consultation but do recall it dragging on for too long meaning people lost interest. I think its fair to go for a more concise implementation.

Happy to take feedback so if there were any other issues with that implementation/consultation please let us know.


Okay, so that response did not exactly inspire confidence, to put it mildly.

I think it would be best now if I simply request Moderation to deliver a more considered response to the issues I raised, particularly those 4 specific questions I asked.

In addition, there is now a fifth question: is there any significance to the fact that the Cultural Protocols Index still lists Endralon as a Culturally Protected nation, bound by its latest Hungarian Cultural Protocol? Does this mean Moderation has after all not yet fully decided whether Endralon is now Culturally Open? Or is this merely a continuation of the familiar pattern of Moderators forgetting to update the Index after a change had been made?
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby cm9777 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Sorry to hear that. I can definitely offer a guarantee that we are looking into the issue and have at the moment put the indexing on hold due to the dispute we are managing.

Everything is up for consideration at the moment in line of upcoming rule changes. As for why certain things were done in that rule rework, the basis of the proposal was to offer a clearer document not to say the old rules were bad or anything but the fact that anything can be improved upon as shown by our planned improvements to the rules are they are now. However for the moment, the rules do apply as they are and so Moderation is in the process of applying the current rules.

The change and consultation (which imo I think I recall dragged on too long resulting in people losing interest) was many months ago (on the top of my head I think it was April?) and so I must apologise for not being entirely able to recall precise discussions.
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby Aquinas » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:39 am

cm9777 wrote:Sorry to hear that. I can definitely offer a guarantee that we are looking into the issue and have at the moment put the indexing on hold due to the dispute we are managing.


Any update re: Endralon's Cultural Status? ie. Is it now Culturally Open, or is still bound by its former Cultural Protocol? Or are we still in a temporary limbo situation?
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby Aquinas » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:45 am

Any chance of a response? Thanks.
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby cm9777 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:04 pm

Endralon is Culturally Open. Ultimately that is how the rules read atm and I acknowledge issues with how the rules currently read but that’s how they are.
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby Aquinas » Sat Oct 20, 2018 3:09 pm

cm9777 wrote:Endralon is Culturally Open. Ultimately that is how the rules read atm and I acknowledge issues with how the rules currently read but that’s how they are.


It still remains the case, as I pointed out earlier, that the Cultural Protocols Index lists Endralon as Culturally Protected. You explained before that you had put the indexing on hold whilst you decided what to do. Presuming you have now decided Endralon should be Culturally Open, presumably you will want to update the Index to reflect this.

If you have not done so already, I also suggest informing the player in Endralon about your decision, particularly as there is still an OOC bill in Endralon referencing the former Cultural Protocol. That bill, BTW, should also now be deleted, otherwise players seeing it might mistakenly presume Endralon still has that Cultural Protocol.
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby cm9777 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 6:00 am

Yep. Done
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Re: We need to talk about Endralon

Postby Aquinas » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:52 am

cm9777 wrote:Yep. Done


Endralon now needs to be added to the "Culturally Open" list of nations at the Cultural Protocols Index (down at the bottom).

Also, the OOC Cultural Protocol reference bill sitting in Endralon's bills-in-debate section needs to be deleted. Otherwise, as I explained, players may be misled/confused into believing Endralon still retains that Cultural Protocol.
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