International role play planning and discussion

General discussions about the Particracy web game.

Re: Bipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby Aquinas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:54 pm

One of the key "levers" that can be used to engineer international tensions (and potentially even another Terran War) are the Third World Nations, which ultimately fall under the authority of the GRC. I think it is worth thinking carefully about what role they could play in all of this.

Another point: the GRC cannot compel in-game nations to participate in RP, but I presume they can potentially compel participation from the Third World Nations (potentially even if the controller is not enthusiastic). It may be worth making this point more explicit in the regulations surrounding the control of Third World Nations.
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Re: Multipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby Yolo04 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:58 pm

jamescfm wrote:Okay, I think we've got most of the responses we're going to get to the initial proposal. I'd like to take it forward and begin shaping some "fault lines" about which nations sit within each bloc. The rankings of the Global Role Play Committee are to be confirmed tomorrow so they're unlikely to change drastically. I'm interested in discussing the positions of some of the nation's who are less clear cut about how they would side in a situation like this.

The pro-interventionist bloc should probably be headed by Kazulia. Baltusia, Lourenne, New Endralon and Hutori would be Kazulia's clear allies, that's my view but I encourage those within the country to articulate their views on that. I'm not sure on the exact status of the Northern Council right now but presumably the Treaty still exists and has signatories, which could provide the basis for this new bloc's formation given that I think all those nations I've listed are members. Other nations which could be included in this bloc: Kanjor, Alduria, Rildanor, Dorvik, Dankuk, Rutania, Valruzia, Telamon or Keymon.

The pro-sovereignty bloc could be lead by Vanuku and might also include Deltaria, Kalistan, Aldegar, Trigunia, Selucia and Saridan. The ties binding these nations are in many cases non-existent and some are actively hostile to one another (a diffusion of these tensions would be my advised priority to players in these nations). This grouping has far less stringent criteria for entry than the first, since members need only really be supportive of the idea of national sovereignty and non-interference. As a result, any nation not clearly identified with the first group is a potential candidate for membership but one's that standout to me include Zardugal, Malivia, Barmenistan, Jelbania, Lodamun, Beiteynu, Gaduridos and Kafuristan.

This leaves a third grouping of nations who have no clear affiliation and who would be crucial to ensuring that this role-play plan works, in terms of compensating for the fact that one side is often going to appear more powerful. The principal nations I would like to hear from in this group are Istalia and Indrala: where do the players in these nations see themselves in this context. Other nations I haven't mentioned above who are somewhat notable include Luthori, Malivia, Hawu Mumenhes, Cildania, Darnussia/Narikaton and Pontesia. The entire Third World also falls within this category. I would mainly like to have input from the players in any and all nations about where they see themselves within this broad division of Terra.


Keymon is no longer a member of the Northern Council and is now a neutral nation. If you were to make blocs like these, Keymon would be in the 3rd bloc
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Re: Bipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby jamescfm » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:01 pm

Aquinas wrote:One of the key "levers" that can be used to engineer international tensions (and potentially even another Terran War) are the Third World Nations, which ultimately fall under the authority of the GRC. I think it is worth thinking carefully about what role they could play in all of this.

An important point. The large grey area on the map leaves us with a lot of room for manoeuvring. It makes conflict easier too because even if we don't have a global war, we have an entire continent on which localised conflicts could happen.

Yolo04 wrote:Keymon is no longer a member of the Northern Council.

I've addressed this point if you read the next post I wrote but even so, it's not relevant that Keymon is no longer in the Northern Council because (despite what some would have you believe) international relations are somewhat entrenched and can't be changed overnight. The economic ties, for example, aren't just going to disappear.
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Re: Bipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby Yolo04 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:34 pm

jamescfm wrote:
Yolo04 wrote:Keymon is no longer a member of the Northern Council.

I've addressed this point if you read the next post I wrote but even so, it's not relevant that Keymon is no longer in the Northern Council because (despite what some would have you believe) international relations are somewhat entrenched and can't be changed overnight. The economic ties, for example, aren't just going to disappear.


I’m not arguing economic ties are going to disappear, however the Keymon Neutrality Treaty legally makes Keymon a neutral nation. If a multipolar world were to emerge, Keymon would remain neutral while trading with all sides. And even if this wasn’t true, due to its significant increase in relations with nations in Majatran(mainly Vanuku), Keymon would be disputed between Vanuku and Kazulia.
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Re: Multipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby jamescfm » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:18 pm

Yolo04 wrote:I’m not arguing economic ties are going to disappear, however the Keymon Neutrality Treaty legally makes Keymon a neutral nation. If a multipolar world were to emerge, Keymon would remain neutral while trading with all sides. And even if this wasn’t true, due to its significant increase in relations with nations in Majatran(mainly Vanuku), Keymon would be disputed between Vanuku and Kazulia.

Okay, sure I'll take that into account although I still feel Keymon is under strong Kazulian influence.

Just a quick note that to facilitate fast but focused discussion, I've created a Discord server for any players interested in this idea or in (international) role play issues generally. Link is here: https://discord.gg/r5Zdtq8
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Re: Multipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby Sisyphus » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:39 pm

Hello James,

I promised a fuller reply - here it is.

Firstly, let me say, I am very interested in this international RP, I hope it will work out and fully subscribe to giving it a good go.

I am pleased you have split the Vanukean and Deltarian sphere into two and feel there is more chance of credible RP taking place now, and I get the idea of these two, begrudgingly, coming together for expedience sake later on in the RP to thwart "a common enemy".

Even so, I think there will have to be some considerable unravelling of alliances, forging of new partnerships and breaking of treaties to facilitate the RP. For instance with Vanuku, it currently has very close ties with Istalia; a historic co-operation treaty with Hutori, which virtually ended the long-running animosity with the Northern Council and a close relationship with Valruzia after helping to persuade it to leave the NC. It has a secret military/production pact with Keymon and has friendly/royal links with Luthori and Dorvik. Now, none of these are insurmountable but this is just one nation and shows how there will need to be considerable movement to comfortably achieve the tri-polar position on your map.

Secondly there is the hook - I agree with Aquinas that the Third World could be the way to go. I consider I/we missed a trick when the Dovani War was fought and I should have got Vanuku more involved with defending the integrity of a couple of nations in the third world, which would of possibly precipitated the Second Terran War.

So I would be happy to do some RP around Vanuku's old colony New Verham getting expansionist or trying to pirate ships coming through the Midway canal and onto the interior sea to the north. This could lead to "intervention" from Kazulia, Lourenne etc with Vanuku being dragged in to protect New Verham's sovereignty and then we go from there... something like that, anyway.

Finally, may I suggest that while there may be posturing over nukes etc, whichever way this breaks we keep this as a conventional warfare if diplomacy breaks down. I just feel from the last RP we did regarding a small yield tactical nuke being dropped on Deltarian troops in Jelbania, that emotions can run pretty high and IC and OOC tend to get a bit meshed. I think it would be difficult to keep this going off the rails if we went nuclear.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. As mentioned, happy to be actively involved and I will be contacting my potential ally Gaudiridos in the morning!
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Re: Multipolarity: role play planning and discussion

Postby Aethan » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:50 pm

Sisyphus wrote:Finally, may I suggest that while there may be posturing over nukes etc, whichever way this breaks we keep this as a conventional warfare if diplomacy breaks down. I just feel from the last RP we did regarding a small yield tactical nuke being dropped on Deltarian troops in Jelbania, that emotions can run pretty high and IC and OOC tend to get a bit meshed. I think it would be difficult to keep this going off the rails if we went nuclear.


This point is interesting because it's true that once the RP starts, some players tend to get too excited and start writing about increasingly powerful weapons only to be above others, so it should also be planned carefully
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Re: International role play planning and discussion

Postby jamescfm » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:52 pm

Okay, I had some feedback on the Discord and the impression I got was that a few people are confused about what exactly I am proposing here. The only thing I am truly committing to is explained in the first sentence of the thread: "I'm hoping to start a conversation about the international role-play in the game at the moment". The purpose of this thread and the associated Discord server was primarily to get some discussion going on international role-play among those players who are interested, in the hope that would lead to some progress or cooperation. At this stage, I am not committed to any particular proposal.

The "bipolarity" suggestion that I made was just an initial idea and something to get a discussion going. When it became clear that my proposal had some flaws, I reformed it into a "tripolarity" proposal. The problem with much of the response to these ideas has been that people are far overestimating what I was proposing by a "bloc". I didn't necessarily mean a military alliance like NATO or a political union like the EU, I simply meant a loose association of nations which could be connected in various ways like trade deals, friendship agreements and maybe down the road more substantial arrangements. Likewise, the polarity terms weren't intended to represent strict understandings of international relations, they were just a shorthand way to reference what I was proposing.

Another point of confusion seems to have arisen surrounding what the fundamental aim of my proposal was. I think creating a map may have encouraged people not to read my posts as thoroughly but they were never intended to reflect the existing state of Terra, they were an objective that we could work towards. The principal goal was to establish an ordering principle or a common destination so that when we are conducting international role-play we're all pulling in the same direction.

In terms of moving forward, I still think the divided Terra idea is plausible although I did wonder whether a "spheres of influence" approach may work better. Perhaps the Third World could essentially become a game of chess for the Great Powers who try to establish sympathetic governments in each nation? I'm still eager to hear other players input both on this thread or the Discord server.
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Re: International role play planning and discussion

Postby jamescfm » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:15 pm

Apologies that I haven't really provided an update on this over the past week, I had some real-life deadlines and prioritised the work Lewis and I have been doing in the Third World for my game time. With that said, I have moved forward with a plan, briefly outlined in the second part of this post, to create an "axis of the Third World". The states in question: Suyu Llaqta, Utari Mosir, Liore and eventually Istapali will be characterised by authoritarian and dictatorial governments but also by a hardline opposition to "the West", characterising any international opposition or condemnation of their governments as "neocolonial interventionism".

Meanwhile (with Luis' approval), I'll be seeking to make Lourenne a vocal leader of the international grouping which will promote action against these nations in the form of economic sanctions, diplomatic actions and potentially through use of military force (though for out-of-character reasons I am hesitant about this). My politicians in Lourenne will be advocates for humanitarian interventionism, in a form similar to the real-life Responsibility to Protect (R2P) framework.

In terms of what I want/need from other players, there are clearly enough anti-intervention nations already. On the other hand, I need nations who are willing to commit to an R2P-style doctrine so that Lourenne has some legitimacy and can actually pose a meaningful threat to these Third World nations. Hutori, Kazulia, Istalia, Indrala are all potential allies if players in those nations are interested.
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Re: International role play planning and discussion

Postby jamescfm » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:43 am

The narrative involving the "Third World axis" has moved forward significantly since I last posted. Hardline parties have seized power over in Utari Mosir, Suyu Llaqta and Liore. The situation differs in each country: Utari Mosir is conducting outright genocide against ethnic minorities, while the latter two are currently just undemocratic, authoritarian regimes. In Istapali, a far right party came close to seizing power but has since been banned; it will now fracture into a slightly less extreme political party and a militant organisation. The next steps involve Liore and Suyu Llaqta signing some sort of agreement; those two parties supporting the far right militants in Istapali; Utari Mosir joining this agreement and the eventual invasion of the Cifutingani island of Kamphon by Utari Mosir.

Lourenne has responded with an embargo and I encourage other nations to take similar actions, against Utari Mosir in particular.
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