Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 05/28/2020)

Postby jamescfm » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:46 pm

Auditorii wrote:2. I mean, I'm not a fan of copy-pasting real life articles, I know players who do it and I know who have done it there is nothing in the rules against it. Personally I think that it cheapens the RP because you're literally copy-pasting, swapping out names and using other peoples work but that's a personal preference.

I have to be honest that this is incredibly disheartening. Among players who are reasonably active in the game it has become something of an "open secret" that certain players semi-regularly plagiarise real-world articles. Until this point I had always assumed that Moderation was choosing not to punish said players on the basis that it would be more effort than it is worth. I did not realise that Moderation was actually okay with players plagiarising articles and that it was being considered as part of the rankings process.

For my part it seems that if we are going to allow plagiarism openly then we have to make some significant changes, the most important of those being the role of the permanent members of the Security Council. The rationale for the existence of permanent members and their veto power has always been that it is creates an incentive for players to create long-term, high-quality role-play. If copy-pasting articles from the internet is enough to earn you that position then it doesn't really seem like a reward to me.

The rankings are already devised in such a way that they incentivise certain types of role-play at the expense of other types. Even though I think this is a shame and that it probably discourages players from pursuing more unique or esoteric role-play, it's not the end of the world. However if we are now going to move to the point that they actively encourage players to pump out low-quality, copy-pasted role-play then it seems me they are doing more harm than good.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 05/28/2020)

Postby Aquinas » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:20 am

jamescfm wrote:
Auditorii wrote:2. I mean, I'm not a fan of copy-pasting real life articles, I know players who do it and I know who have done it there is nothing in the rules against it. Personally I think that it cheapens the RP because you're literally copy-pasting, swapping out names and using other peoples work but that's a personal preference.

I have to be honest that this is incredibly disheartening. Among players who are reasonably active in the game it has become something of an "open secret" that certain players semi-regularly plagiarise real-world articles. Until this point I had always assumed that Moderation was choosing not to punish said players on the basis that it would be more effort than it is worth. I did not realise that Moderation was actually okay with players plagiarising articles and that it was being considered as part of the rankings process.

For my part it seems that if we are going to allow plagiarism openly then we have to make some significant changes, the most important of those being the role of the permanent members of the Security Council. The rationale for the existence of permanent members and their veto power has always been that it is creates an incentive for players to create long-term, high-quality role-play. If copy-pasting articles from the internet is enough to earn you that position then it doesn't really seem like a reward to me.

The rankings are already devised in such a way that they incentivise certain types of role-play at the expense of other types. Even though I think this is a shame and that it probably discourages players from pursuing more unique or esoteric role-play, it's not the end of the world. However if we are now going to move to the point that they actively encourage players to pump out low-quality, copy-pasted role-play then it seems me they are doing more harm than good.


This comes as much as a shock to me as the announcement a little while ago that it is no longer against the rules to publish player's private messages on the official public Discord server. I fully agree with James; the role of the rankings seems questionable now, and the presence of permanent members on the Security Council seems more difficult to justify. Also mildly curious as to whether Wouter was consulted about giving the go-ahead to plagiarism on the forum. The risk of that attracting legal trouble might be small, but is nonetheless present.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 05/28/2020)

Postby Auditorii » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:05 am

The issue with the rule regarding private messages has been solved. Vesica and I agreed that should have never left the rules (and admittedly as the one who re-wrote a vast majority of them I am certain I had them in there) and that has been re-added. I just confirmed that:

6. The sharing of in-game messages, forum personal messages, Discord messages related to Particracy and other discussions that are considered to have a reasonably expectation of privacy are prohibited from being shared;

-- Source: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8088&p=145758#p145758

As for the issue of using real world articles and replacing information, I only know of a handful of players who have/who do it and from my understanding it is limited. I don't really think that the rankings are at all "problematic" or "corrupted" in any way because I can tell you that a vast majority of people that are in the "senior" spots in the rankings simply don't do that. With that being said however, we'd be willing to broach the issue and discuss it. I'm not certain that this is the appropriate topic for it, perhaps a new topic to address such matters.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 05/28/2020)

Postby Rogue » Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:58 am

Auditorii wrote:The issue with the rule regarding private messages has been solved. Vesica and I agreed that should have never left the rules (and admittedly as the one who re-wrote a vast majority of them I am certain I had them in there) and that has been re-added. I just confirmed that:

6. The sharing of in-game messages, forum personal messages, Discord messages related to Particracy and other discussions that are considered to have a reasonably expectation of privacy are prohibited from being shared;

-- Source: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8088&p=145758#p145758

As for the issue of using real world articles and replacing information, I only know of a handful of players who have/who do it and from my understanding it is limited. I don't really think that the rankings are at all "problematic" or "corrupted" in any way because I can tell you that a vast majority of people that are in the "senior" spots in the rankings simply don't do that. With that being said however, we'd be willing to broach the issue and discuss it. I'm not certain that this is the appropriate topic for it, perhaps a new topic to address such matters.


Thank you for readding that rule. It is highly appreciated and gives some players a bit of breathing room when saying something, knowing it wont be shared everywhere. As for the new topic to discuss it Aquinas has opened one. I encourage anyone that wants to involve him or herself into the discussion go there: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8799
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 06/19/2020)

Postby colonelvesica » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:22 pm

Alright... First World Rankings are done. Farsun and I will be updating the Third World Nations in a few days.

Summary of Changes

Economic
Yingdala up to Very Strong
Kalistan & Dolgava up to Strong
Kazullia & Lourenne down to Strong
Malivia, Telamon & Dundorf up to Average
Vanuku, Valruzia & Keymon down to Average
Lodamun down to Weak

Military
Yingdala up to Great Power
Kazullia & Istalia down to Regional Power
Deltaria is considered an Emerging Regional Power
Telamon, Endralon & Malivia up to Middle Power
Lourenne & Valruzia down to Middle Power
Lodamun down to Small Power

As usual by all means players, comment and ask questions, we are at your disposal.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 06/19/2020)

Postby robmark0000 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:36 pm

This is little unbelievable for me, that Endralon progressed in military ranking, however in Endralonian RP we focused on economies, not military.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 06/19/2020)

Postby Auditorii » Fri Jun 19, 2020 10:50 pm

robmark0000 wrote:This is little unbelievable for me, that Endralon progressed in military ranking, however in Endralonian RP we focused on economies, not military.


One of the issues that has risen is the combination of Military and Political influence tied together, meaning that Endralon didn't necessarily "rank up" due to military influence but because of the lack of relevant political powers on Artania outside of Dorvik. Dorvik would be seen, I assume by Artanians, as the continental hegemonic power but Endralon's rise as an active entity in regional politics cannot be denied. The combined status of Military/Political ranking is and has been a point of contention for us internally for sometime, something that I think many of us have raised and while we're not set to introduce a third pillar of rankings, it is not totally out of the question especially in cases such as yours and Sekowo's or Jakania's.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 06/19/2020)

Postby jamescfm » Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:31 pm

I have a few queries and suggestions about the rankings. For some these are simply questions, rather than necessarily recommendations.

  • Interested to know the justification for Trigunia's position as a strong economy and regional power. There have been literally zero substantive posts in the Trigunian news thread this month.
  • Cannot understand the decision to retain Dorvik as a great power in light of the decision to downgrade Istalia. Dorvik has been relatively inactive over the past couple of months with most posts focusing on internal politics.
  • I believe that there is a case for upgrading Jakania to a regional power for a few reasons. We already have a lack of regional powers anyway so there is a degree of "room at the top". Jakania has been a significant force on the international stage and has the support of a majority of non-empty countries in the Security Council elections. I think the confrontation with Kazulia (a great power at the time) suggests the country has more than the "limited power of projection to their neighboring states" implied by our current position. For the military component I would point to the ongoing military modernisation programme, the Majatran Jet Fighter Program in which Jakania is explicitly stated as being an "equal partner" with regional powers Deltaria and Istalia as well as the naval exercises conducted in collaboration with Malivia and Deltaria.
  • Reiterating what robmark has already said, I think that Endralon deserves to be elevated to a strong economy
  • Selucia, Beiteynu, Rildanor, Saridan, Gaduridos, Kafuristan and Kizenia should all be downgraded to weak economies in my opinion since none have had any significant role-play for months.
  • Beiteynu, Kizenia, Rildanor, Saridan and Kafuristan should be downgraded to small powers for the same reason.
Regardless of the above changes but particularly if the large group of countries that I suggested do receive downgrades and as suggested first by Wu Han, I would love to role-play a financial crisis or some other significant economic shock to explain the large number of downgrades. If other players like this idea then we should open a thread and plan things out so that we can coordinate our role-play and decide on the different impacts across countries. Would Moderation consider running this as a formal event that impacts countries regardless of individual player behaviour, something like the Terran Digital is intended to do?
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 06/19/2020)

Postby Aquinas » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:37 am

I am pleased by Malivia's upgrade to a Middle power militarily/politically, as I was hoping that status would be achieved sooner or later.

The economic rankings are somewhat confused by the fact we now have differential population numbers for each nation, instead of almost every nation having about 100 million people, as had been the case previously. This means the current definitions in the economic power ranking become problematic, as they take in to account how economically developed a country is, but not the size of its economy. For reference, I quote the definitions below, which are drawn from the OP of this thread:

Economic Power Ranking
Underdeveloped: These countries are the Third World nations of Terra, whose colonial regimes abused them in order to profit in days gone by. They have often been intentionally undeveloped or developed in such a way as to divide the people therein for the benefit of the metropole. They struggle to provide even basic healthcare or education to their people, and they are highly reliant on international aid and charity. These nations do benefit from the continued focus on the extraction economy, and they often can sell their goods at lower prices than most more developed nations on the international market.

Weak: These countries have economies typically centered around the agricultural or extraction sectors. Though some manufacturing might exist, if it exists on any large scale it is likely to be internationally owned and thus unprofitable for the host nation. Locals might have set up subsistence economies that emphasize manufacturing in the household (cottage industries) to compensate for the lack. Generally, the people of these countries have poor education and health relative to more developed nations. The family unit and the community in these nations are likely to be very important to everyday life, and people are likely to feel much less alienated than in the more automated and high-paced medium and high development nations. Pollution is largely a result of agricultural and extraction byproducts, and these are typically water pollutants. These nations are very often net exporters, but the goods they export may not get them too much in return.

Average: These countries have economies centered most heavily on manufacturing or extraction-based industries, but they might also have some clusters of post-industrial industries along side some agricultural industry. These countries have lower life expectancy, less education, and less income (primarily GDP per capita) than high development nations, but they can also generally boast higher employment than the increasingly automated high development nations, a more citizenry more generally engaged in the political sphere than in the more alienated high development nations, etc. These nations likely are more likely to be heavy polluters than many other nations. Though they are generally less active on international markets than high development nations, their economies often center around export and so trade is relatively important.

Strong and Very Strong: These countries have economies typically centered around services and high tech industries. Culture and political goals can influence what types of industries are most influential, e.g. the agricultural or manufacturing sectors are still important for certain real-world high development economies, but these industries should be secondary and perhaps being phased out. More and higher quality education and health opportunities exist. These countries tend to have higher GDP per capita and median incomes, although inequality may still persist. These countries typically have higher standards of living, but can also experience the consequences of such an economy, such as increased alienation, higher unemployment as automation increases, the decreased importance of the family unit, etc. These countries tend to be active in international markets, but don't necessarily always experience trade surpluses.

Hyperpower: Only one nation on terra could possibly become a hyperpower. Being a hyperpower means you have the largest economy on Terra and have an economy that affects others when it does good or bad. A hyperpower economy is however highly vulnerable in times of crisis and has the problem of possibly overburdening itself. A hyperpower economy is also mostly focussed on the services and tech sector and is most of the time highly dependent on food and industrial imports from other countries. The currency of a hyperpower is generally considered to be the standard exchange currency globally. Reaching this status is extremely hard and only possible after prolonged, detailed economic RP.


Malivia, I notice, has been upgraded from a "Weak" economic power to an "Average" one. My initial reaction to that was surprise, since I have clearly RPed Malivia as being a country with significant "Third World"/"developing world" elements. It has more advanced elements as well, and there are some wealthier classes of people...but nonetheless, the average income and general standard of living in Malivia, at least in my conception, is low.

Perhaps it would be possible to justify Malivia being an "Average" economic power on the basis that although its people are generally poor, it does have a large population (second only to Indrala, I think). It is not easy to calculate whether the large population would be enough to do this, though. For this reason, I believe it would be better if the economic rankings consisted of two parts, one for average income per person, and another for economy size/"economic power" (calculated by multiplying the population by the average income per person). We did this for Terra Nations, and I present the spreadsheet for reference here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... A2/pubhtml

I am not massively bothered whether Malivia's economy is ranked as "Weak" or "Average", but what I am hoping for is an an assurance from Moderation that under whichever ranking Malivia is given, there is a recognition this is a country with deep problems relating to poverty and underdevelopment.

My ideal preference would be that Malivia should have an even bigger population than it does currently, and have an economy which is "Average" or even "Strong" in terms of size of the economy, but where the country is still essentially very poor/undeveloped. However, if staying at "Weak" would be a better option in terms of ensuring my current RP does not run in to problems, then I would prefer that.
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Re: PT Classic Dynamic Rankings (Updated: 06/19/2020)

Postby Auditorii » Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:50 am

jamescfm wrote:I have a few queries and suggestions about the rankings. For some these are simply questions, rather than necessarily recommendations.

  • Interested to know the justification for Trigunia's position as a strong economy and regional power. There have been literally zero substantive posts in the Trigunian news thread this month.
  • Cannot understand the decision to retain Dorvik as a great power in light of the decision to downgrade Istalia. Dorvik has been relatively inactive over the past couple of months with most posts focusing on internal politics.
  • I believe that there is a case for upgrading Jakania to a regional power for a few reasons. We already have a lack of regional powers anyway so there is a degree of "room at the top". Jakania has been a significant force on the international stage and has the support of a majority of non-empty countries in the Security Council elections. I think the confrontation with Kazulia (a great power at the time) suggests the country has more than the "limited power of projection to their neighboring states" implied by our current position. For the military component I would point to the ongoing military modernisation programme, the Majatran Jet Fighter Program in which Jakania is explicitly stated as being an "equal partner" with regional powers Deltaria and Istalia as well as the naval exercises conducted in collaboration with Malivia and Deltaria.
  • Reiterating what robmark has already said, I think that Endralon deserves to be elevated to a strong economy
  • Selucia, Beiteynu, Rildanor, Saridan, Gaduridos, Kafuristan and Kizenia should all be downgraded to weak economies in my opinion since none have had any significant role-play for months.
  • Beiteynu, Kizenia, Rildanor, Saridan and Kafuristan should be downgraded to small powers for the same reason.
Regardless of the above changes but particularly if the large group of countries that I suggested do receive downgrades and as suggested first by Wu Han, I would love to role-play a financial crisis or some other significant economic shock to explain the large number of downgrades. If other players like this idea then we should open a thread and plan things out so that we can coordinate our role-play and decide on the different impacts across countries. Would Moderation consider running this as a formal event that impacts countries regardless of individual player behaviour, something like the Terran Digital is intended to do?


(1) Trigunia's presence as a "Strong"/"Regional Power" is largely due to the absence of any real "significant" power within the region (Macon and Keris) and is, at best, a very "weak" regional power. Trigunia has had some RP done with it (myself towards mid to late May, but otherwise been "quiet");
(2) You can speak with Vesica, I don't really have any involvement with Dorvik in terms of rankings and visa versa, I usually review Hutori and the happenings with Hutori and we provide our thoughts and unless there is some glaring issue, we generally let the other make the decision. I made the note that Dorvik should be considered at best a declining Great Power and I have as such hinted at that in my newspapers I believe.
(3) I'll confer with Vesica about Jakania but honestly the region is now crowded with 2 Regional Powers and 1 emerging Great Power, that was my main detriment to Jakania remaining where it is. I think it certainly has its merits and I'll discuss with Vesica again but thats where I stand.
(4) Our issue with Endralon is that the country has staked a large portion of its economy on the 3M and lacked diversification, while Endralon certain does meet some of the markers for a "Strong" economy, the lack of other viable trade partners outside of 3M causes concern. I noted that the presence of Dorvik in the regional trading pool definitely bolstered Endralon's economy but we believe its fortunes have been to closely tied to a single corporation and we don't really believe that supports "strong".
(5 and 6) We try to balance Average/Middle and Small/Weak and usually trade them when countries move around. We don't want to stack things too much Small/Weak and we don't want to stack the opposite way either.

You're welcome to have countries sign on for any sort of "financial crisis" but that would be voluntary RP even still.
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