Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

[John Cracker]

Overall good update, but I do have to ask why was Likatonia updated now when their was much less military RP between the last update and this one, as opposed to before when there was more?

EDIT: I think I can answer that question myself: Due to the increased influence of Likatonia mainly from an SC seat, the upgrade is not necessarily saying our military is stronger than it used to be, but that our influence is greeter.

[Auditorii]

Overall good update, but I do have to ask why was Likatonia updated now when their was much less military RP between the last update and this one, as opposed to before when there was more?

EDIT: I think I can answer that question myself: Due to the increased influence of Likatonia mainly from an SC seat, the upgrade is not necessarily saying our military is stronger than it used to be, but that our influence is greeter.

That is correct. Likatonia, while not as militarily active, has had quite some activity via the SC. Were actively looking to add a third pillar to the rankings in "political influence" and removing it from the military ranks to better reflect this.

[ChengherRares1]

I wish to know why Lodamun is still an average economic power. I am ok with it remaining so, just wondering why admins did not considered it Great economic power so i can improve my rp in getting ranked up.

[Kubrick]

It does not happen often but I find myself in full agreement with Mr.God and am equally surprised at these rankings. While the changes seem fair (bar Deltaria) it baffles me that nations like Hutori and Dorvik remain at the top with almost zero roleplay to justify it. I would argue for both those nations to be downranked.

Let us see what has been posted in the past month in Dorvik's news thread:

1. a post about trade between Rutania and Dorvik
2. construction of a base in Keymon
3. condemnation of an attack
4. 15 new cute subs
5. slight economic growth
6. Dorvik fought in a war
7. exercise
8. investment in Davostan
9. Artanian League
10. Northern Council
11. Northern Council again
12. religious man helps poor people
13. condemnation of a territorial claim
14. political party might change
15. new leader
16. Artanian League again

I have added a fancy bold text to the ones that seem relevant for military and economic rankings. Mind you, these are all the posts that were made in Dorvik's news thread over the period from June 25 to July 25. 16 news articles.

Now let's do the same with Deltaria for example:

1. agreement with N&D and Kalistan
2. new cute helicopters
3. vidya games
4. plans to make new cool boats
5. space mission failure
6. destroyers enter service
7. music festival
8. international politics
9. internets
10. naval exercises
11. new torpedo
12. new cute helicopters
13. electoral victory
14. imperial museum
15. state visit
16. new czarina (on JULY 3rd Deltaria already had equal news posts as Dorvik! One week instead of one month.)
17. battlecruiser 50% done
18. heat missile network
19. space mission failed why
20. feminism
21. pewpew machine cancelled
22. spotify but deltarian
23. new tech park
24. spec ops training
25. vascania trade
26. new defence budget
27. justice reform
28. FOMAT
29. TASN
30. oil
31. FOMAT song
32. battlecruiser tests
33. really cool vanuku nuke tests "not so cool" says uncool deltarian
34. start of RECESSION
35. recession worsens
36. riots, deltarians deny cool vanuku money
37. military gets vacay because no money
38. powerful woman fires colleagues
39. flying cute boys need financial aid
40. economic plan for recovery
41. FOMAT
42. end of recession
43. carrier refit
44. powerful woman now fired herself
45. powerful man hires himself
46. FOMAT
47. football
48. economic investments
49. powerful people not fired but arrested
50. new jet
51. hostage crisis
52. innocent jelbic man killed by uncool deltarians
53. state visit lourenne
54. cyber security
55. protests
56. shipyard expansion plans
57. uncool deltarians admit murdering really cool jelbic
58. police does police stuff #acab
59. economic growth stagnates, more deltarians have jobs
60. cute jet gets help
61. carrier swims in sea
62. uncool deltarians refuse to pay cool jelbics
63. movie
64. heat missile thing online
65. czarina reelected
66. death from above
67. deltarian companies in keymon
68. cute jet flies
69. movie wins best pic
70. FOMAT

SEVENTY news posts, ladies and gentlemen. And I understand that someone like Mr.God is at the far end of the activity spectrum, he does post a lot. I don't know where he finds the time or motivation but hey, especially the last month the posts do not read as filler. Something happens in them. Again I have added some boldness to the brave news posts involved in economic and military RP. But even without the boldness, 16 posts in a month compared to 70 posts in a month. How can we pretend that nations like Dorvik can stay at the top for so long with so little effort being put in the RP? I could also have done this for Hutori, after skimming their news thread there were a staggering THREE military RP posts and ONE economic RP post. The rest of the news posts were only about inner party elections and rivalries. And this is a great power. The players in the nation clearly don't put in the effort to justify the rankings.

Now I am also speaking out against making Deltaria a very strong economy, that is nothing against Mr.God, but the man RP'd a damn RECESSION and only recently climbed out of it and somehow that gave him the same lateral growth as, for example, Vanuku that sucked Jelbania dry of all resources and stole Jelbanian money and jobs and never had a recession because it wasn't interlinked in the Majatran economic network that collapsed. Now I am perfectly content with Vanuku's rankings but this all seems weird, twisted logic was applied to come to these conclusions.

As such I would suggest the following:

- Downgrade Dorvik and Hutori, Hutori probably deserves to skip two ranks at the least. A war is not an excuse to remain at the top, especially economies collapse during wars.
- Downgrade Deltaria's economy to Strong and have them boosted in a month after the economy properly recovers.

I feel more strongly about the former than the latter, this nonsense of two mods sitting at the top of the rankings with very little RP actually being done has gone on long enough. Put them to the same standards players receive.

[Rogue]

Thank you for the response both Vesica and James. While i get the explanation regarding Dorvik i dont agree with it. Saying Dorvik was "very active" during the Macon war is not true. As far as i could find two, maybe three posts, were dedicated to Dorvish involvement. Thats not a lot and especially not for the entire half month the war went on. So i must agree with Kubrick in this regard, i was already suprised Dorvik remained a declining great power in the last rankings but figured that Farsun would ammend that and actively involve Dorvik again as all indications seemed to point out. This is not the case and i see no real reason why Dorvik would remain a Great Power. Especially if compared to other more active nations.
On Hutori im still conflicted. I do agree with the statement that Hutori hasnt really been involved in global politics and only swinged its veto power here and there. If the only reason for Hutori remaining a GP is a regional war, then why isnt Iraq or Iran a superpower by now after the Iraq-Iran war? Why isnt Saudi Arabia the foremost global power IRL? Wars devastate a nation not only economically but also socially and politically to some degree. They have impact. If it was a clear victory for Hutori okay but it wasnt, Hutori was overstretched and frankly i dont think a nation should be a GP just because they fought a regional conflict. Thats not how international influence, geopolitics etc work.

As for my rank up to Very Strong i agree with Kubrick as well. While i did indeed put effort into diversifying my economy it was not complete yet, in fact in my recession posts i talked about the recession worsening because of it being in the middle of Deltaria's economic transition.

So to conclude, i agree with Kubrick and recommend the following:

Hutori be downgraded to Regional power
Dorvik be downgraded to Regional power
Deltaria to keep its Strong economy ranking and not be upgraded to Very Strong

[Pragma]

Dynamic rankings? More like STAGNANT rankings, amirite?

In all seriousness, Kubrick makes some important points about Hutori & Dorvik maintaining so high a position in the rankings when their efforts really are overshadowed by the absolute chad of a nation that is Deltaria. Mr God - may the Virgin Mary have mercy upon his keyboard - is consistently posting interesting content and absolutely deserves a spot at the top.

In the words of Michelle Obama:

Girl, you have done it again, constantly raising the bar for all of us and doing it flawlessly.

I think we all need to reflect a bit on Michelle's words.

I also wish to commission Kubrick to dissect Vascania's last month of posts and write a witty summary of the posts. I will pay him in elephants which have mutated a third tusk due to the oil spill.

[Liu Che/Zhuli]

We thank the Moderation team for their dedication to the issue of the dynamic rankings. They have been forthright in their analysis, willing to listen and address our concerns, as well as provide the opportunity for feedback and discuss. In the spirit of this debate, we believe that the dynamic rankings should not exist, or become a completely voluntary enterprise.

First, we find that the rankings can stifle roleplay. We believe that the rankings have played a major role in the recent plagiarism issue by encouraging players to write numerous economic and military "rank boost" posts. These players, desiring to increasing the economic and military ranking of the nations in which they play(ed), likely saw plagiarizing real world articles as an easy and efficient way to attain their desired rank. This alone shows that the rankings can be an issue. Furthermore, we believe that the rankings actually discourage creativity. We have noticed that most posts are, indeed, focused on economic and military development. Some of us engage in these types of postings to increase the rankings of our respective nations in which we play. However, we do find it to be monotonous, uninspiring, and repetitive - so much so that it actually discourages us from engaging in more creative roleplay. We believe that roleplay would be far more creative and vibrant with a voluntary ranking system or no ranking system. Not to mention, it can be difficult to roleplay correctly when there are those in authority who are very interested in aspects of military technology and specifications. While we commend them for their passions, not everyone is an expert, nor should they be expected to become one. A voluntary system or elimination of the system altogether would reduce or eliminate this stressor.

Second, although we find a general agreement that rankings should be focused on quality of posts, we see that quantity is still a concern. Many of us too feel pressure to make multiple posts - again which can be repetitive - to maintain a certain standing, as we are still unsure of the qualifications, as well as the pattern of certain nations remaining in their ranking while the players in those nations are in positions of authority. An elimination of the rankings or a voluntary system would fully allow players to play the way they desire, with creativity and likely higher quality.

Finally, we understand that not everyone is in agreement with this proposal. Some may think that everyone will begin to play as if they are a global hyperpower with thousands of air craft carriers and millions of nuclear weapons with an economy that is triple the size of the United States. However, we feel that this is hyperbolic. Players, even under the current system, have the ability to ignore one another's roleplay. Thus we ask this question, what is greater: for Moderation to force other players to recognize your status as a player/nation, or for players, of their own volition, to recognize the quality of your RP? We believe the answer is the latter.

Again we appreciate the work of Moderation to listen to us on these issues and welcome feedback from others.

Signed (willing to add more):

Aethan
Aquinas
Gabriel (ChengherRares1)
John Cracker
Kubrick
LC73
Liu Che
Lucipher
Mr F47
MrGod
Pragma (QV73)
Reddy
Zanz

[Auditorii]

It has become very clear that the community, as mentioned by the above "letter" has lost faith in the rankings. It's something that Vesica and I, then Vesica, James and I and now James and I, have grappled with. The rankings certainly have had an effect on the community, notably the RP community, as presented here. After discussions with James, we're both generally in favor of making the rankings non-compulsory. This would bring a host of issues associated with it however. The top two that I can think of are below. I think that the best way to handle that would be through community feedback and a combination of ideas.

(1) Security Council - Naturally with the "elimination" of Great Powers or at least the non-compulsory enforcement of Great Powers we have an issue in the Security Council. In my opinion, we eliminate the Permanent Member status and we finally get rid of the veto. This means that the mechanic that we have in place for elections to the Security Council would take precedence and elections would still occur once a month. I think this is arguably one of the best things about non-compulsory rankings. It finally forces people to have to work together to make things happen in the SC versus just relying on the Great Powers to hand out vetos like candy;

(2) The loose rules on aircraft carriers, nuclear, chemical and biological weapons - With the "elimination" of the restrictions on the aforementioned items I think the best thing to do would be to do what we did back in the day. You can have them if you do some RP to get them. I'd be interested to hear the feedback on that, I'm personally of the mind that if we're going to make the rankings non-compulsory, we just focus on some good ole RP and not worry about that. I believe it was Zanz that referenced "If I'm doing an RP and I want Zardugal to have nuclear weapons, they should have nuclear weapons." I can agree that its becomes stingy when you have a concept for an RP and can't act on it because of the rankings.

With that said, I'm sure that there will be some growing pains related to non-compulsory rankings. I think that ultimately they can continue to revive PT Classic by removing roadblocks for the RP community here. As a note this is more of an opinion as a player, an active player at that, rather than a Moderator.

[robmark0000]

I think this plan, this initiative is quiet dangerous to the enjoyment of Particracy Classic. Not just because the possible anarchy and unrealistic RP what would be its consequences, but it would steal an important collective goal (to achieve better rankings), what is truly can be resulting that a new player won't just writing electoral news after elections in the Forum, but it will actively starting to RP to achieve better rankings, etc. Detailed arguments below.

First, we find that the rankings can stifle roleplay. We believe that the rankings have played a major role in the recent plagiarism issue by encouraging players to write numerous economic and military "rank boost" posts. These players, desiring to increasing the economic and military ranking of the nations in which they play(ed), likely saw plagiarizing real world articles as an easy and efficient way to attain their desired rank. This alone shows that the rankings can be an issue. Furthermore, we believe that the rankings actually discourage creativity. We have noticed that most posts are, indeed, focused on economic and military development. Some of us engage in these types of postings to increase the rankings of our respective nations in which we play. However, we do find it to be monotonous, uninspiring, and repetitive - so much so that it actually discourages us from engaging in more creative roleplay. We believe that roleplay would be far more creative and vibrant with a voluntary ranking system or no ranking system. Not to mention, it can be difficult to roleplay correctly when there are those in authority who are very interested in aspects of military technology and specifications. While we commend them for their passions, not everyone is an expert, nor should they be expected to become one. A voluntary system or elimination of the system altogether would reduce or eliminate this stressor.

About plagiarism: look my entire RP what I've done since I arrived in April. I am - I think - a known figure of rank-boosting community, who RPing to achieve better rankings (the 25 Steps Program was a clear initiative from me to achieve the Strong economy status what I did across it). But I was never, I repeat, I was never reported to plagiarism reports. I think this is enough argument for it.
That is not a solution, that if somebody do plagiarism to achieve better rankings, and because of it we abolish rankings collectively, so also abolish for that people (sorry for self-pompous) who trying to achieve better rankings with creative RP.

I can promise you, if you abolishing rankings, or make it voluntary, new players would RP nuclear wars and etc out the rankings then leave this game after a month, because they had enough, unrealistic fun. Just like when you are angry, break a chair and then go forward like nothing happened. I think I can claim that I am still here because the PT Rankings what I want to achieve since my joining. And many new players in the future I think will want to achieve em. And as u said, LiuChe, that people who want to play unrealistically, already can play unrealistically. Then why problem if they cannot attack with their ghost-nuclear space zombie weapons that people who RPing realistically?

As I said, this letter (if accepted by Mods) will only causing less goals, and less realistic RP in PT. So I ask the Moderation to please, not abolish rankings.

EDIT:

It has become very clear that the community, as mentioned by the above "letter" has lost faith in the rankings. It's something that Vesica and I, then Vesica, James and I and now James and I, have grappled with. The rankings certainly have had an effect on the community, notably the RP community, as presented here. After discussions with James, we're both generally in favor of making the rankings non-compulsory. This would bring a host of issues associated with it however. The top two that I can think of are below. I think that the best way to handle that would be through community feedback and a combination of ideas.

Please, do not act like the entire community would lost its faith in the rankings. 11 RPers lost its faith in it or just want to reform it (based on what Gabi said on Discord), not the entire community, and I hope that many people could agree with me. I know the situation is really became divisive, but there is still a silent majority in PT, and I think before you do anything because this letter, you should held a great and long debate what affects every active RPer. For example in dynamic rankings feedback the majority was in favor of rankings

[Rogue]

I am thankfull for the proposals laid forward by Farsun. I think they are good although i personally have two comments on it.

First of all i think if the rankings would be non-compulsory it would still be worth it to adhere to the RP rules as much as possible. So, for example, a nation can get nukes if the RP is good/realistic and has a specific purpose behind it. It wont be tied to the rankings anymore allowing basically anyone to do it. But it would still require some decent effort to get either Nukes or Aircraft carriers, i think thats only fair for those who have in the past really put effort into these programs (like Hutori)

Second thing to note. I like the idea on the SC and i would support such a move if possible. I do wonder if we would still somewhat hold onto the permanent member position but without the veto? But im unsure about that. It would give GP's in the non compulsory rankings some "reward" still so not sure if thats a good or a bad thing. Other then that i think the suggestions are good.

To respond briefly to Rob. I think its not fair to really make assumptions if we havent tried out non compulsory rankings. Spreading fears is something i have done in the past, but we need to look at stuff objectively. So to you Rob i say, try it and then determine whether you like it or not. Descirbing yourself as a rank-booster also underscores the problem. Rankboosting posts are, most of the time, done to rank up, not because you had a great idea that day that you were excited about. Lets bring back creativity and try this out.