Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

General discussions about the Particracy Classic including role-play planning and suggestions.

Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby alaskancrabpuffs21 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:59 pm

colonelvesica wrote:
Rogue wrote:Im gonna object to Aquinas his comments since they are completely derailing this feedback thread. The RP that moderation based itself on was likely the many articles in the Yingdala thread that werent plagarized, and i have seen no one object to the Yingdalan situation besides someone no longer actively playing the game.

The question at hand was how do we differentiate between soft and hard power and what does moderation believe needs to be done in order to clarify the difference.
Yingdala doesnt just have one player in it, its thread doesnt consist of solemnly plagarized content and its position is well deserved. If we go by the notion that a nation is somehow "property" of a specific player i think we are taking a wrong turn. Lets get back to actual feedback on the rankings themselves and not specific players.

Answering your question about the soft versus hard power question, this has been something I've thought about for some time. There was talk of, at one time, creating a third category in the rankings for soft power or influence (diplomatic, cultural etc.) which would aid in splitting the line between who were military hard powers and who focused on diplomacy/had their culture widely felt internationally. The chief issue with this is, unlike economic and military, this one is extremely subjective and the interpretation of what is "influence".

Chitin and I are considering (in the next ranking cycle) of doing just that split, though first we would be seeking community consultation on whether it should be done, and if we do, what metrics would be kept track of.


I support this as well, However I think a clear definition like something Liu put forward would be nessisary. However I like the idea of a Soft/Hard power split if it isn't too much of a hassle.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby Drax » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:14 am

I think the idea of diplomatic influence is something to notice and rank but may be rather more difficult than the other two. One thing that should not count is sheer mass of discord posts. Often what is said over and over and over again is costing influence not gaining it.

With that said believe moderation should give it a try because it is an important measure of success but knowing they may well not know who is really pulling the strings. And we should not be particularly upset if moderation does not guess correctly about influence.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby colonelvesica » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:45 am

Drax wrote:I think the idea of diplomatic influence is something to notice and rank but may be rather more difficult than the other two. One thing that should not count is sheer mass of discord posts. Often what is said over and over and over again is costing influence not gaining it.

With that said believe moderation should give it a try because it is an important measure of success but knowing they may well not know who is really pulling the strings. And we should not be particularly upset if moderation does not guess correctly about influence.

That is something that will be discussed at length with the community if and when we implement such a system. This particular aspect of the rankings is one of the more difficult ones to actually track.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby Aquinas » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:34 pm

colonelvesica wrote:I am stating if you have an issue with Yingdalas rankings and wish to challenge it solely on the basis of the behavior of a single player within that community, are you asking that the community be held back for this cycle because of his choices? Even with the five cases of plagiarism taken into account, the Role Play Yingdala did as a whole was of supremely high quality which is why Yingdala did rise in thr rankings.

I am firm however that further discussions regarding Moderation enforcement of the plagiarism reports be down in the appropriate thread.


I am grateful to Chitin for taking what I feel is a more reasonable position in terms of how discussion on this thread is regulated. Also grateful to Vesica, of course, for agreeing to go along with this.

Quoting Vesica's comments on the Moderation Querises & Feedback thread...

We'll remove jrandle and Yingdala from the equation and I'll pose this as a general question. An active and multiparty nation (we'll use Luthori) has been doing significant economic and military based Role Play. Moderation makes the determination that Luthori should be reflected as having raised in Economic and Military status. A player, out of their community of five other active Role Players, is found to have plagarized a few articles (we'll say six, out of total posts that number say ninety). Should the community has a whole have their Role Play disregarded by Moderation because of the mistakes of a single player, or do you feel that, because of the actions of the singular player, the entire nation's RP is now "tainted" for lack of a better term and should be ignored, in regards to the ranking, until at least the next cycle.


In response to this, I feel it would be helpful to remind you of a comment you made to jrandle8/Jack not all that long ago on the #roleplay-discussion channel of the PT server:

Vesica wrote:You're so lucky you have a coalition partner that both doesn't do a lot of International Role Play and let you pretty much be the international face of of Yingdala like Rob

As if he he wanted, he could just say "nope" lol


You noted here, correctly I believe, that although Jack is not the sole player in Yingdala and does not hold (or at least does not always hold) sole political control there, he is "pretty much...the international face of Yingdala". You also note, again I believe correctly, that a similar situation usually exists in Endralon, where Rob is usually only one player amongst others, but tends to be the nation's primary international RPer.

It is not uncommon for such situations to exist in this game. From my observation, you yourself, at times, have been one of only several players in Hutori, but have still been, in effect, the nation's lead international RPer. The same has been the case with Axxell in Istalia, at times, as well. And I'm sure we could all come up with other past and present and examples. And it goes without saying, of course, that I think it is wonderful we have the Vesicas, the Jacks, the Robs, the Axxells and so on who are willing to take up the mantle of international RP. Without them, the game would be missing a lot, and a lot of nations would lack international RP entirely.

You will appreciate my line of argument, I hope, when I suggest that changes to a nation's position in the economic and military rankings will likely affect the lead international RPer in that nation to a greater degree than it will affect other players there who are primarily interested in RPing domestic events and politics. The reason being, it affects the power balance between nations, and that is something the international RPer is inevitably more sensitively attuned to and affected by. And so, for example, when we see Yingdala's rankings changed the name that comes to most of our minds is "Jack", and when we see Endralon's rankings changed, the name that comes to most of our minds is "Rob". And so on.

Let me remind you again that the changes you have made to the rankings place Yindala at their centrepiece. If this was a case of changing their position from "Weak" to "Average", or even for that matter from "Average" to "Strong", then the signal you are sending out would not be quite as deafening. However, what you have done is moved Yingdala to "Very Strong" in the economic rankings, making it the highest economically ranked nation in the whole of Terra, and you have also declared it to be a "Rising to Great Power" in the military rankings, again placing it in the top tier.

The argument I put to you, and I do this with all due respect both towards Moderation and Jack, is that in presenting these rankings changes, you are OOCly sending out a signal about Jack, affirming him as a player who you are confident to be RPing the premier power in the game. Given that Jack has not only recently plagiarised, but has also recently blatantly lied about doing so, I question whether that sends out the right signal to the community about plagiarism. I also question whether your initial attempt to ban me from even raising this issue on this thread sends out the right signal either.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby jrandle8 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:11 pm

Aquinas wrote:
colonelvesica wrote:I am stating if you have an issue with Yingdalas rankings and wish to challenge it solely on the basis of the behavior of a single player within that community, are you asking that the community be held back for this cycle because of his choices? Even with the five cases of plagiarism taken into account, the Role Play Yingdala did as a whole was of supremely high quality which is why Yingdala did rise in thr rankings.

I am firm however that further discussions regarding Moderation enforcement of the plagiarism reports be down in the appropriate thread.


I am grateful to Chitin for taking what I feel is a more reasonable position in terms of how discussion on this thread is regulated. Also grateful to Vesica, of course, for agreeing to go along with this.

Quoting Vesica's comments on the Moderation Querises & Feedback thread...

We'll remove jrandle and Yingdala from the equation and I'll pose this as a general question. An active and multiparty nation (we'll use Luthori) has been doing significant economic and military based Role Play. Moderation makes the determination that Luthori should be reflected as having raised in Economic and Military status. A player, out of their community of five other active Role Players, is found to have plagarized a few articles (we'll say six, out of total posts that number say ninety). Should the community has a whole have their Role Play disregarded by Moderation because of the mistakes of a single player, or do you feel that, because of the actions of the singular player, the entire nation's RP is now "tainted" for lack of a better term and should be ignored, in regards to the ranking, until at least the next cycle.


In response to this, I feel it would be helpful to remind you of a comment you made to jrandle8/Jack not all that long ago on the #roleplay-discussion channel of the PT server:

Vesica wrote:You're so lucky you have a coalition partner that both doesn't do a lot of International Role Play and let you pretty much be the international face of of Yingdala like Rob

As if he he wanted, he could just say "nope" lol


You noted here, correctly I believe, that although Jack is not the sole player in Yingdala and does not hold (or at least does not always hold) sole political control there, he is "pretty much...the international face of Yingdala". You also note, again I believe correctly, that a similar situation usually exists in Endralon, where Rob is usually only one player amongst others, but tends to be the nation's primary international RPer.

It is not uncommon for such situations to exist in this game. From my observation, you yourself, at times, have been one of only several players in Hutori, but have still been, in effect, the nation's lead international RPer. The same has been the case with Axxell in Istalia, at times, as well. And I'm sure we could all come up with other past and present and examples. And it goes without saying, of course, that I think it is wonderful we have the Vesicas, the Jacks, the Robs, the Axxells and so on who are willing to take up the mantle of international RP. Without them, the game would be missing a lot, and a lot of nations would lack international RP entirely.

You will appreciate my line of argument, I hope, when I suggest that changes to a nation's position in the economic and military rankings will likely affect the lead international RPer in that nation to a greater degree than it will affect other players there who are primarily interested in RPing domestic events and politics. The reason being, it affects the power balance between nations, and that is something the international RPer is inevitably more sensitively attuned to and affected by. And so, for example, when we see Yingdala's rankings changed the name that comes to most of our minds is "Jack", and when we see Endralon's rankings changed, the name that comes to most of our minds is "Rob". And so on.

Let me remind you again that the changes you have made to the rankings place Yindala at their centrepiece. If this was a case of changing their position from "Weak" to "Average", or even for that matter from "Average" to "Strong", then the signal you are sending out would not be quite as deafening. However, what you have done is moved Yingdala to "Very Strong" in the economic rankings, making it the highest economically ranked nation in the whole of Terra, and you have also declared it to be a "Rising to Great Power" in the military rankings, again placing it in the top tier.

The argument I put to you, and I do this with all due respect both towards Moderation and Jack, is that in presenting these rankings changes, you are OOCly sending out a signal about Jack, affirming him as a player who you are confident to be RPing the premier power in the game. Given that Jack has not only recently plagiarised, but has also recently blatantly lied about doing so, I question whether that sends out the right signal to the community about plagiarism. I also question whether your initial attempt to ban me from even raising this issue on this thread sends out the right signal either.

I actually told myself that I would not respond to this anymore seeing that it was handled rather effectively, however, I believe the latest statement by Aquinas warrants a response on a number of grounds that I won’t layout at this moment. Before I begin, I want to reiterate my deep respect for Aquinas and I mean no disrespect in anything I say to him in our disagreements.

No matter how much I love seeing my name mentioned and how much it strokes my ego, I do, however, don’t like seeing my name drugged through the mud. That’s where I draw the line. Now, I know Aquinas meant no disrespect in any of the many statements made about me and what I’ve done, but I do feel as if the statements made do lean (a little) on the side of disrespect, not to me alone but to the other players in the Great Ying Ying. Let's begin to dissect the situation and where Moderation is right and Aquinas is wrong.

Crime Committed
The entire PT community knows what I’ve done. In case there are those who do not have a clue, I would like to inform them properly. I, Jack, plagiarized a treaty. I took the UN treaty and made it my own for the CESU. For that very reason, after being warned by Moderation to take it down, I failed to do so losing my position as WC Coordinator, a position I held for a literal 12 hours...literally. Not only that, suspension from Yingdala or PT is still, I believe, not off the table.

Wrongful Accussation(s)
(1) Aquinas is arguing that because I plagiarized a treaty, that all roleplay that I (and the other players in Ying) have done, whether that be economic, diplomatic, military, or ANY roleplay, that all of that should be ignored and that Yingdala’s ranking should not change because of plagiarizing a treaty. I don’t know how this particular treaty fits in with any of the economic roleplay we have done since Yingdala has never benefitted economically from it...at all.
(2) Aquinas also wants to deny Yingdala the economic upgrade ranking from “Strong” to “Very Strong” because I’m considered the “main role player” for Yingdala and that granting the upgrade sends the wrong message. I find that to be unfair to the other two parties in Yingdala, both of whom contributed a lot to the role play of Yingdala. Their contribution should not be ignored because of one player's mistake. They should not be denied an economic ranking upgrade because of what I did that they had NO INVOLVEMENT IN WHATSOEVER. Their only crime is simply being a player in the nation. Also, I don't know what negative message upgrading Yingdala's economic ranking would send to the player base since literally everybody has read our economic roleplay in the country.

Authenticity Matters
What Aquinas, however, fails to mention is the authenticity of my roleplay, and of course, those of the other players. NONE of our roleplay was plagiarized...none of them. I've been in Yingdala since 4848 and all roleplay I've done has been authentic, with the exception of a definition I used for smart cities (in which I deleted the entire roleplay in the early 4900s because of that definition). I believe that I should play fair and correct my mistakes, which I have done. I've even started Yingdala at an economic and military disadvantage in my early days in the country. The players in the country and I have collectively contributed to the growth of the Yingdalan economy, military, and regional standing since 4848. I am proud to say that, and I know that this is repeated, all of our roleplay was authentic and continues to be authentic.

Where Aquinas and I Might Agree
While our economic ranking should not be downgraded for reasons I mentioned earlier in this message, I believe that our regional ranking should be looked at again. I'm not sure if Moderation used the CESU when determining our regional power, however, if that is the case, I believe that Moderation should take a second look at that and simply remove our CESU roleplay in determining our regional power and influence. I believe it's fair and I think that Aquinas would agree. Actually, there has been a deal of discussion about this very topic (not Yingdala but regional and military power). Many of the points brought up should be looked at and considered by Moderation, but I will not comment on it for my knowledge in this matter isn't as...exquisite?...as those who are involved in the discussion.

Conclusion
I understand where Aquinas is coming from, but it sends out the wrong message to the community that if you make a mistake, all of your roleplay that you sacrificed your time to do, should be canceled. I have enough cancel culture in my real life to be dealing with it here, to be honest. The obsession with me has to end at some point, unless, you know, it's good then by all means continue lol. But, seriously, canceling roleplay in the rankings could lead to unseen consequences to the entire community and could potentially kill the game. I've been playing PT Classic since December 2014 and this the first time I ever communicated with the entire community outside of the game, so some things are new to me even if I could be considered a seasoned rper. Moderation, if you have to suspend/ban me in order to satisfy Aquinas, by all means, do it. Yeah, it'll suck and I would hate it, but I'd sacrifice myself for the sake of not only the community but myself, Moderation, and the other rpers in Yingdala.

Lastly, let's keep this forum thread clear of any mess and other unnecessary comments. We cannot and must not drown out the voices of players who wish to give moderation their feedback on where to make Dynamic Rankings better. Continuing to progress and upgrade is needed and we should respect that.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby Aquinas » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:40 am

jrandle8 wrote:I actually told myself that I would not respond to this anymore seeing that it was handled rather effectively, however, I believe the latest statement by Aquinas warrants a response on a number of grounds that I won’t layout at this moment. Before I begin, I want to reiterate my deep respect for Aquinas and I mean no disrespect in anything I say to him in our disagreements.

No matter how much I love seeing my name mentioned and how much it strokes my ego, I do, however, don’t like seeing my name drugged through the mud. That’s where I draw the line. Now, I know Aquinas meant no disrespect in any of the many statements made about me and what I’ve done, but I do feel as if the statements made do lean (a little) on the side of disrespect, not to me alone but to the other players in the Great Ying Ying. Let's begin to dissect the situation and where Moderation is right and Aquinas is wrong.

Crime Committed
The entire PT community knows what I’ve done. In case there are those who do not have a clue, I would like to inform them properly. I, Jack, plagiarized a treaty. I took the UN treaty and made it my own for the CESU. For that very reason, after being warned by Moderation to take it down, I failed to do so losing my position as WC Coordinator, a position I held for a literal 12 hours...literally. Not only that, suspension from Yingdala or PT is still, I believe, not off the table.

Wrongful Accussation(s)
(1) Aquinas is arguing that because I plagiarized a treaty, that all roleplay that I (and the other players in Ying) have done, whether that be economic, diplomatic, military, or ANY roleplay, that all of that should be ignored and that Yingdala’s ranking should not change because of plagiarizing a treaty. I don’t know how this particular treaty fits in with any of the economic roleplay we have done since Yingdala has never benefitted economically from it...at all.
(2) Aquinas also wants to deny Yingdala the economic upgrade ranking from “Strong” to “Very Strong” because I’m considered the “main role player” for Yingdala and that granting the upgrade sends the wrong message. I find that to be unfair to the other two parties in Yingdala, both of whom contributed a lot to the role play of Yingdala. Their contribution should not be ignored because of one player's mistake. They should not be denied an economic ranking upgrade because of what I did that they had NO INVOLVEMENT IN WHATSOEVER. Their only crime is simply being a player in the nation. Also, I don't know what negative message upgrading Yingdala's economic ranking would send to the player base since literally everybody has read our economic roleplay in the country.

Authenticity Matters
What Aquinas, however, fails to mention is the authenticity of my roleplay, and of course, those of the other players. NONE of our roleplay was plagiarized...none of them. I've been in Yingdala since 4848 and all roleplay I've done has been authentic, with the exception of a definition I used for smart cities (in which I deleted the entire roleplay in the early 4900s because of that definition). I believe that I should play fair and correct my mistakes, which I have done. I've even started Yingdala at an economic and military disadvantage in my early days in the country. The players in the country and I have collectively contributed to the growth of the Yingdalan economy, military, and regional standing since 4848. I am proud to say that, and I know that this is repeated, all of our roleplay was authentic and continues to be authentic.

Where Aquinas and I Might Agree
While our economic ranking should not be downgraded for reasons I mentioned earlier in this message, I believe that our regional ranking should be looked at again. I'm not sure if Moderation used the CESU when determining our regional power, however, if that is the case, I believe that Moderation should take a second look at that and simply remove our CESU roleplay in determining our regional power and influence. I believe it's fair and I think that Aquinas would agree. Actually, there has been a deal of discussion about this very topic (not Yingdala but regional and military power). Many of the points brought up should be looked at and considered by Moderation, but I will not comment on it for my knowledge in this matter isn't as...exquisite?...as those who are involved in the discussion.

Conclusion
I understand where Aquinas is coming from, but it sends out the wrong message to the community that if you make a mistake, all of your roleplay that you sacrificed your time to do, should be canceled. I have enough cancel culture in my real life to be dealing with it here, to be honest. The obsession with me has to end at some point, unless, you know, it's good then by all means continue lol. But, seriously, canceling roleplay in the rankings could lead to unseen consequences to the entire community and could potentially kill the game. I've been playing PT Classic since December 2014 and this the first time I ever communicated with the entire community outside of the game, so some things are new to me even if I could be considered a seasoned rper. Moderation, if you have to suspend/ban me in order to satisfy Aquinas, by all means, do it. Yeah, it'll suck and I would hate it, but I'd sacrifice myself for the sake of not only the community but myself, Moderation, and the other rpers in Yingdala.

Lastly, let's keep this forum thread clear of any mess and other unnecessary comments. We cannot and must not drown out the voices of players who wish to give moderation their feedback on where to make Dynamic Rankings better. Continuing to progress and upgrade is needed and we should respect that.


Jack,

There has never been any personal "obsession" with you on my part. My discussion in relation to you on the forum has been based on your actions in terms of plagiarising and then misleading us about your plagiarising, and Moderation's actions in terms of responding to this by appointing you to a position of senior responsibility and declaring your nation the premier power in the game.

I do appreciate it may feel uncomfortable finding yourself publicly discussed in the way I have done, but as I say, it is not personal, and this is about actions, not personalities. Also, FWIW, the fact I have found it necessary to discuss you to the extent I have is actually due to Moderation's handling of matters, as opposed to your own. You are, at least from my point of view, somewhat "caught in the crossfire" here. Whilst I am not without empathy for you in regards to this, I do maintain the points I have made are legitimate and that I am justified in raising them.

jrandle8 wrote:Crime Committed
The entire PT community knows what I’ve done. In case there are those who do not have a clue, I would like to inform them properly. I, Jack, plagiarized a treaty. I took the UN treaty and made it my own for the CESU. For that very reason, after being warned by Moderation to take it down, I failed to do so losing my position as WC Coordinator, a position I held for a literal 12 hours...literally. Not only that, suspension from Yingdala or PT is still, I believe, not off the table.


This is not a full and accurate summary of your plagiarism and the issues in relation to how you responded to it being discovered. The actual timeline reads:

10 March: You are revealed to have plagiarised in two separate articles and from two separate sources. In response, you promise us:

jrandle8 wrote:I will take further action in auditing all of my posts to check for plagiarism (which won't be more than the number of fingers on my hand) and edit them to be original creations from Jack.


4 April: I privately contacted Moderation about a third plagiarism of yours I had discovered, involving the plagiarism of the UN Charter on the forum. Four days later, Moderation appointed you WC Coordinator, despite having been informed about this, and despite the fact the plagiarism was still up there on the forum at the time. The details of this plagiarism can be seen here.

8 April: You claim:

jrandle8 wrote:Actually Aquinas, I am not embarrassed this time. I made this aware to Vesica almost a month ago and that I used the UN Charter as a reference. While I did not post the real treaty for the CESU that is completely different from the UN Charter, I did fail to provide an OOC source to the original post.


10 April: Upon investigating your CESU Treaty, I discover it is in fact a large scale plagiarism of the UN Charter, and you have not simply used the document "as a reference". I also discover yet another Treaty you have wholesale plagiarised, this time an agreement between Yingdala and Davostan which was a plagiarism of a RL agreement between the United States and Mozambique.

13 April: Despite your having been found to have committed plagiarism in 5 separate instances, and despite the fact you did not "come clean" about the full scale of your plagiarism after the first 2 instances were revealed (notwithstanding the commitments you gave to us at that time), and despite your having misled us about only having used the UN Charter "as a reference" when in fact you had performed a wholesale plagiarism, Moderation declares your nation the premier power in the game.

jrandle8 wrote:Moderation, if you have to suspend/ban me in order to satisfy Aquinas, by all means, do it. Yeah, it'll suck and I would hate it, but I'd sacrifice myself for the sake of not only the community but myself, Moderation, and the other rpers in Yingdala.


I can only repeat, as I have previously, that I have never called for you to be suspended or banned. My actions have been limited to challenging your plagiarism and the less than satisfactory way in which you responded to its discovery, and challenging Moderation's decision to respond to this by appointing you to a position of senior responsibility and declaring your nation the premier power in the game.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby jrandle8 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:41 am

Hey Aquinas, you’re right. After reviewing it from a larger picture, I think that a bump in ranking at this time would be inappropriate given the charge. I know Moderation is looking into that and will make the right decision. While I’ll probably never be WC Coordinator again, I do think that preserving the dignity of the rules matter much more than my position in PT whether that be on the mod/coordinator team or a bump in rankings. Yingdala could wait another month before we’re bumped up in ranking, which is truly deserved on the part of the Yingdalan players.
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Re: Feedback: Dynamic Rankings

Postby colonelvesica » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:55 am

Following community feedback Yingdala's promotion to Very Strong Economic Power & a Rising Regional Power has been withdrawn.
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