Quality RP or plagiarism?

[jamescfm]

Don't really understand what the resistance is to having a discussion about how we might improve things. If the rankings system is fair and robust then nobody will raise any problems with it and we'll carry on as normal. I think the fact that you are resistant to having the discussion indicates that you know that there are problems with the current system but don't want to address them. Addressing the issue of plagiarism immediately was the right thing to do and I am glad that you listened to our feedback but please recognise that this isn't just a one-off issue.

Even the few examples that we have seen in this thread indicate that this was a pattern of behaviour from a group of players that has had a fundamental impact on the way that the game and the community functions. The response has to go beyond simply saying "this is not allowed anymore" and moving on. Let me speak candidly and personally when I say that as World Congress Coordinator, I struggle to see how you can expect me to enforce Kazulia's position as global hegemon when that position seems to have been maintained (at least in part) through extensive plagiarism. If you will not open a discussion on the matter then I'll just open a thread on the subject myself.

Aquinas has shown examples of plagiarism by Maisonette in Valruzia, by Maxington in Kazulia, and by Luis in Lourenne. From all three players it seems that this was a pattern of behaviour and I believe it is highly unlikely that all three players happened to have the idea all on their own around the same time. Combined with the fact that the players and countries involved are in-game allies and that Moderation seems to have been aware of the issue for a while, it seems reasonable to assume that they knew about about each other's plagiarism. On a similar note, it is probably unlikely that we have discovered all the players involved in plagiarism. Let me make clear that these are just reasonable assumptions, I am not saying that I have any evidence of collaboration or that other players were involved.

For the reasons above, it would be extremely useful if the players involved could give an account of the extent of plagiarism in the community in recent months, to their own knowledge. Luis has offered a starting point with his acknowledgement of wrongdoing and I think that was the right thing to do. Similar acknowledgements from the other players should be the bare minimum. In my personal opinion, the right thing to do would be for these players to be totally transparent about their actions. In particular, telling us openly how much of their content is plagiarised and if they are aware of any other players who are involved.

[Auditorii]

Don't really understand what the resistance is to having a discussion about how we might improve things. If the rankings system is fair and robust then nobody will raise any problems with it and we'll carry on as normal. I think the fact that you are resistant to having the discussion indicates that you know that there are problems with the current system but don't want to address them. Addressing the issue of plagiarism immediately was the right thing to do and I am glad that you listened to our feedback but please recognise that this isn't just a one-off issue.

Even the few examples that we have seen in this thread indicate that this was a pattern of behaviour from a group of players that has had a fundamental impact on the way that the game and the community functions. The response has to go beyond simply saying "this is not allowed anymore" and moving on. Let me speak candidly and personally when I say that as World Congress Coordinator, I struggle to see how you can expect me to enforce Kazulia's position as global hegemon when that position seems to have been maintained (at least in part) through extensive plagiarism. If you will not open a discussion on the matter then I'll just open a thread on the subject myself.

Aquinas has shown examples of plagiarism by Maisonette in Valruzia, by Maxington in Kazulia, and by Luis in Lourenne. From all three players it seems that this was a pattern of behaviour and I believe it is highly unlikely that all three players happened to have the idea all on their own around the same time. Combined with the fact that the players and countries involved are in-game allies and that Moderation seems to have been aware of the issue for a while, it seems reasonable to assume that they knew about about each other's plagiarism. On a similar note, it is probably unlikely that we have discovered all the players involved in plagiarism. Let me make clear that these are just reasonable assumptions, I am not saying that I have any evidence of collaboration or that other players were involved.

For the reasons above, it would be extremely useful if the players involved could give an account of the extent of plagiarism in the community in recent months, to their own knowledge. Luis has offered a starting point with his acknowledgement of wrongdoing and I think that was the right thing to do. Similar acknowledgements from the other players should be the bare minimum. In my personal opinion, the right thing to do would be for these players to be totally transparent about their actions. In particular, telling us openly how much of their content is plagiarised and if they are aware of any other players who are involved.

There is no resistance but I can tell you that from speaking to Vesica and our discussions over time, we've come to realize that the basis used to judges the rankings has come from DOZENS of different players since the rankings were created. Please don't think we don't want to improve nor do we have any opposition to changes but we're comfortable right now with the way they are handled, doesn't mean something can't be improved. The issue of plagiarism in PT has been around a long time, long before I became a Moderator or this issue was raised but it was never addressed. It's always "come up" but just simply never been addressed and I am sure that this coordinated effort to "bring it to light" has done good.

With that, I've blatantly stated that Vesica and I are going to look at the rankings (as we generally do even when we aren't discussing changes/tweaks/etc.) and look to see what we can do to realistically address the issues that have arisen here and make sure that the in-game implications are "realistic".

[Luis1p]

Don't really understand what the resistance is to having a discussion about how we might improve things. If the rankings system is fair and robust then nobody will raise any problems with it and we'll carry on as normal. I think the fact that you are resistant to having the discussion indicates that you know that there are problems with the current system but don't want to address them. Addressing the issue of plagiarism immediately was the right thing to do and I am glad that you listened to our feedback but please recognise that this isn't just a one-off issue.

Even the few examples that we have seen in this thread indicate that this was a pattern of behaviour from a group of players that has had a fundamental impact on the way that the game and the community functions. The response has to go beyond simply saying "this is not allowed anymore" and moving on. Let me speak candidly and personally when I say that as World Congress Coordinator, I struggle to see how you can expect me to enforce Kazulia's position as global hegemon when that position seems to have been maintained (at least in part) through extensive plagiarism. If you will not open a discussion on the matter then I'll just open a thread on the subject myself.

Aquinas has shown examples of plagiarism by Maisonette in Valruzia, by Maxington in Kazulia, and by Luis in Lourenne. From all three players it seems that this was a pattern of behaviour and I believe it is highly unlikely that all three players happened to have the idea all on their own around the same time. Combined with the fact that the players and countries involved are in-game allies and that Moderation seems to have been aware of the issue for a while, it seems reasonable to assume that they knew about about each other's plagiarism. On a similar note, it is probably unlikely that we have discovered all the players involved in plagiarism. Let me make clear that these are just reasonable assumptions, I am not saying that I have any evidence of collaboration or that other players were involved.

For the reasons above, it would be extremely useful if the players involved could give an account of the extent of plagiarism in the community in recent months, to their own knowledge. Luis has offered a starting point with his acknowledgement of wrongdoing and I think that was the right thing to do. Similar acknowledgements from the other players should be the bare minimum. In my personal opinion, the right thing to do would be for these players to be totally transparent about their actions. In particular, telling us openly how much of their content is plagiarised and if they are aware of any other players who are involved.

Just to reiterate, I do acknowledge the wrongdoing in the plagiarism I did commit and commend myself for doing it in the first place. I apologize for any players that feel discouraged by my actions and want to state that, again, my intentions were not discourage any of you.

Now, most of the articles Aquinas posted in the beginning are most of the plagiarism. I did take sentences from other posts in the past and fit them into my articles and there are other articles where there is clear "inspiration". Most of it is just within these past three weeks. And again I already explained why I took from RL articles to post. I think, when rankings are done again, I would be accepting of moving down a level in the rankings. It's only fair at this point.

This was not a joint effort with Maxington and Maisonette. I can pull out DM receipts if need be. I think it's kinda unfair to assume that my actions OOC in regards to my plagiarism is related to IG alliances. Most of the plagiarized RP isn't even related to Valruzia or Kazulia in the first place. I'm not going to speak for them either. I am speaking for myself and my actions.

[Aquinas]

By my own admission yes, so did every previous Moderator to date iirc.

This is most definitely NOT the case. Plagiarism was much rarer in the past than it appears to be now, but that does not mean it was allowed. There were rules against it, and there were cases where they had to be enforced. One particular example I recall involved the Libreal Party in Dranland (as it then was) some years ago...you may recall that case yourself, since you were a Moderator at the time. There are a few other instances which come to mind as well, including the one Reddy mentioned, where a player actually plagiarised another player's post.

By the way, I have found section 5 (on RL variables) from the old set of rules, and even they included this:

5.1.1. Real-life quotations may be used, but the real-life speaker or author should always be referenced in an OOC (out-of-character) note alongside the quotation.

I didnt defend using plagiarized material at all. I simply didn't want to come across an issue where someone used a component of a real life text, applied it to Particracy and was called plagiarism for it. For instance if someone posts a quote of a text, a piece of informational text from an article to describe something, etc

This is confusing. We really do need to know the difference between the plagiarism you're okay with and the plagiarism you're not okay with.

not sure the most realistic thing to do is sudden rip countries from rankings without any context.

Nations are incrementally raised and lowered in the rankings several times a year, usually. What is the big deal about that?

I recall an incident not long ago where Likatonia did a naval exercise, and Moderation decreed it would have to be a failed naval exercise because the player had over-reached himself RP wise. What has happened with these countries is exactly the same. The players have over-reached themselves, and the reality of that needs to be implemented in to RP in some form.

Until you provide evidence that I, as the main player in Keymon, had plagiarized any posts in the past year (6 months), please stop trying to drag Keymon or I into this controversy. Also, please do not spit on my work just because you think I plagiarized, which I didn’t. I would prefer my work to make Keymon a strong power be respected, as I have shown respect to you.

You have already openly admitted plagiarising posts and have made it clear you are unrepentant about it. If anything, you sound indignant that the issue has been raised at all.

With respect, I have no interest in wasting my time going through your posts trying to research which (if any) recent posts have been plagiarised. So far as I am concerned, I divide players between those who I trust to RP with integrity, and those I do not. You, regrettably, fall in to the latter category. This is a real shame, because you can do some really good RP (the Keymon Civil War being a good example), but so far as your posts directed at the economic and military rankings are concerned, to be honest I'm not even inclined to bother to read them any more, and I do not think it is reasonable to expect anybody else to do so either.

This is not personal. I happen to like you as a person, as it happens. This is simply an issue about RP, and I would treat any other player the same who behaved like you have done.

It also of importance to note that you demonstrated that the Valruzia player had plagiarized a single post. So…why does a player’s nation deserve to be down ranked for a single post?

Same principle applies. You either RP with integrity, or you don't, and if somebody does not, I really do not need to waste my time reading their posts and I really would rather not see their nations enjoying premier positions in the rankings which kind of force me to acknowledge them.

I would prefer to believe that you are not using this to merely weaken the ranking of nations that surround you, but your constant attacks on my RP, despite not showing any evidence of plagiarism from me, is making it harder and harder not to believe my hypothesis.

This suggestion is ridiculous and is not worthy of you.

[Auditorii]

This is confusing. We really do need to know the difference between the plagiarism you're okay with and the plagiarism you're not okay with.

Not really, I've never been "supportive" of it but that is neither here nor there. I mean I am okay with someone using quotes from the real life bible for Hosianism, that can easily be stated to be plagiarism but we've all been okay with that. There have been at times players have used scientific information from the real world to explain things in articles, regardless the issue is resolved with the new rule. That'll be added to the PT Game Rules.

Nations are incrementally raised and lowered in the rankings several times a year, usually. What is the big deal about that?

I recall an incident not long ago where Likatonia did a naval exercise, and Moderation decreed it would have to be a failed naval exercise because the player had over-reached himself RP wise. What has happened with these countries is exactly the same. The players have over-reached themselves, and the reality of that needs to be implemented in to RP in some form.

Correct, which is what we're going to try to accomplish while maintaining some sense of realism. I think that's an entirely fair and reasonable thing to want to accomplish.

[jamescfm]

I have opened a thread to collect player feedback on the rankings system in light of the plagiarism issue.

[Yolo04]

You have already openly admitted plagiarising posts and have made it clear you are unrepentant about it. If anything, you sound indignant that the issue has been raised at all.

I stated that everyone, at one point or another, had plagiarized posts. Now, I know you can read (at what level, I don’t know), so I don’t know you got “Keymon should be down ranked” from that statement. But if you want to truly do a deep dive, the last time I plagiarized a post was probably 2 years ago in TerraNations, because I was lazy and didn’t feel like making a post. However, it is funny how me simply stating that I’ve plagiarized in the past means all my modern work should be completely canned. That’s really strange how that logic works.

With respect, I have no interest in wasting my time going through your posts trying to research which (if any) recent posts have been plagiarised. So far as I am concerned, I divide players between those who I trust to RP with integrity, and those I do not. You, regrettably, fall in to the latter category.

Yet you wasted your time looking through posts made by Masion, Luis, and Max up to 4 months ago. You wasted your time doing that, but you won’t waste your time looking through my posts? Yeah, that’s a bullshit explanation.

Also, I’m gonna cry myself to sleep tonight knowing you don’t consider me a “trustworthy” RPer. I’m deeply fucking saddened by your opinion.

This is a real shame, because you can do some really good RP (the Keymon Civil War being a good example), but so far as your posts directed at the economic and military rankings are concerned, to be honest I'm not even inclined to bother to read them any more, and I do not think it is reasonable to expect anybody else to do so either.

Ah, because you don’t like my posts I should have all my work stripped away from me. Genius idea there.

This is not personal. I happen to like you as a person, as it happens. This is simply an issue about RP, and I would treat any other player the same who behaved like you have done.

I don’t care if you don’t think this is personal. If you wanna look at all the posts I’ve done and all the work I’ve done to get Keymon to a strong economic power and then turn around and be stripped of said ranking for some bullshit reason, yeah…I’m gonna take personally.

Same principle applies. You either RP with integrity, or you don't, and if somebody does not, I really do not need to waste my time reading their posts and I really would rather not see their nations enjoying premier positions in the rankings which kind of force me to acknowledge them.

Because Masion plagiarized one post, he deserves to have all his work spit on and ignored? That’s a blatantly stupid position, which fails to acknowledge all the other posts they’ve made. But because of one, you want to strip them of their hard work? Funny how that benefits you directly, isn’t it?

This suggestion is ridiculous and is not worthy of you.

Your suggestion to strip a nation of its ranking because of a SINGLE FUCKING PLAGIARIZED POST is ridiculous. It also just happens to benefit you directly. Funny how that works out for you

Regardless, I would appreciate if you refrain from making demands that Keymon be stripped of its ranking for an arbitrary reason. Thanks

[jamescfm]

Please do not derail this thread with nonsense like that.

[Yolo04]

Please do not derail this thread with nonsense like that.

This “nonsense” was brought up by another player. I’m merely pointing out the fact that demanding that a nation have its ranking stripped for a single plagiarized post or for the main player in said having plagiarized over two years ago, is idiotic. If that’s considered “nonsense” to you, I’m afraid you’ll just have to suck it up and continue to hear me call our ideas I believe are idiotic.

[jamescfm]

Nobody is demanding anything, we're simply asking that those players who have plagiarised own up to their actions and face the consequences. As far as I know, nobody had even accused you of plagiarising until you openly admitted to having done so by suggesting that we all do it. Nothing that I have ever written has been plagiarism. In ordinary life such conduct is not only dishonest, it can constitute a crime in the form of copyright infringement. Quite simply it seems to defeat the point of playing the game. As I already said, I think it is nonsense for you to throw a tantrum at Aquinas for suggesting that you face consequences for what is a fundamentally deceitful and unfair practice.