Cultural protocol feedback

[jamescfm]

To be honest, this does not seem like something we could support. The proposed culture sounds almost as confusing as the one that currently exists in Ikradon, meaning it probably would not resolve the accessibility issues that exist there. Aside from that though, it doesn't seem to reflect the role-played history of the country and both Roman and Albanian are already represented in other parts of the game world (Selucia and Kalopia respectively).

[Lucipher]

To be honest, this does not seem like something we could support. The proposed culture sounds almost as confusing as the one that currently exists in Ikradon, meaning it probably would not resolve the accessibility issues that exist there. Aside from that though, it doesn't seem to reflect the role-played history of the country and both Roman and Albanian are already represented in other parts of the game world (Selucia and Kalopia respectively).

The plan as I see it (which I admit I haven't explained excellently) is not too terribly confusing, but I see why people would think that. From what I saw when I looked through the nation's history, there really isn't a solid role-played history, swapping from Zulu to a confusing Zulu/Ethiopian/Egyptian nation with general African characteristics, to a melting pot of African ethnicities speaking ancient Egyptian. There have been massive changes, and there's really nothing solid.

For my idea, Roman influences would come from Kundrati to the north, while Albanian was a rarely seen group, only a minority in Kalopia. And repeated languages or ethnic groups exist in Terra, from Vascania and Malivia being Indian (although different groups) to English, French, and German cultures being widespread. To better flesh out the idea, it would have kept the ethnicities of general African or African-American peoples, while adding the Albanian language (as it's Artania, the Europe of Terra, it fits) and Roman customs, titles, etc. coming from Kundrati in the north as I mentioned earlier. Albanian, seen in Kalopia, wasn't a choice set in stone, just a potential idea. I believe having a black nation with roman customs and a unique language would be amazing, but I admit if a little bit confusing. Other unique languages could be fit in, along with your idea that Ancient Egyptian could be a language spoken amoung the nobility. Any thoughts or suggestions to add on or criticize are welcomed.

[jamescfm]

I do think this sounds interesting but I don't think it is really within the scope of this process to make substantial changes to culture in this way. Ikradon does have a somewhat confusing role-play history but if we are going to modify it, we should endeavour to only make changes that are necessary for improving general player accessibility. With that said it might make this process easier if I presented a clearer example of the time of modification I suggested earlier.

In essence what is being proposed is retaining most of the text of the original document except the language section. Replacing the section that currently exists would be something like this:

The traditional or classic language used in Hawu Mumenhes/Ikradon has been Neter Senek (Ancient Egyptian) however the dominant vernacular language is Luthorian (English). Due to the country's immigrant background, multilingualism is common and a significant portion of the population speaks a language based on their cultural heritage such as Olimi weZulu (Zulu), Mallan (Ahmaric) or Irkawan (Coptic).

At this point, I think it would be best to hear from players in response to this specific suggestion. Does anybody see any potential problems with making this modification to Ikradon's cultural protocol, or perhaps have a counter-proposal of some kind?

Likewise it seems that the general view at the moment is that Solentia and Vorona should be made culturally open. If anybody has a compelling argument against this course of action then they should bring it forward as soon as possible so that we can make a determination.

[Pragma]

Of course I am a fanatical pro-Albanian, but even I admit this might be a bit of a stretch sadly.

With regard to the linguistics of Hawu, I would maintain that even Coptic is relatively inaccessible. It is a purely liturgical language in the modern day. Personally I would prefer Amharic over Zulu, as Bantu languages are already represented in Talmoria in the playable world and extensive in the forum-based countries. Amharic would certainly be my preference out of the languages of Africa.

Potentially, and this might be a little strange, could I suggest a mixture of Luxembourgish and Amharic? These are two underrepresented languages that would make sense occuring in Hawu. A nation built on migration from Majatra and Dovani (Amharic I think would be the best by far of options that seek to consider both) but also sandwiched between Dundorf and Luthori for thousands of years (thus Luxembourgish, the most accessible west germanic language not in the game atm). A state of two languages, as well as maybe smaller linguistic minorities of German, English and Patois, would be an excellent addition to the playable world and give a new and interesting identity to the game. Neither would be 'reaches' and both would be explainable and sensible from a cultural and historical standpoint, as well as enhancing the game.

I think this proposal is best but I would be looking forward to your takes.

[Reddy]

Prag, Amharic is very well represented in Cobura - about a quarter of the population or so. I respect Lucipher's proposals but I think it is best that Ikradon adopt a Western European culture, it just makes more sense geographically; something like Danish or Scots...or perhaps Luxembourgish. I loathe myself for saying this, having played there (in its Zulu days) but it is just accepting the reality of its unpopularity and complexity.

Solentia could go English which is what Open is in practice. Vorona aka Deltaria Nova is a tough one for me. I really liked its maddening Old English culture but again, I get why it may be unpopular.

[Pragma]

well that would be the *sensible* course of action, to make it European. It is deeply unpopular. Luxembourgish I still stand by tho.

[Lucipher]

Prag, Amharic is very well represented in Cobura - about a quarter of the population or so. I respect Lucipher's proposals but I think it is best that Ikradon adopt a Western European culture, it just makes more sense geographically; something like Danish or Scots...or perhaps Luxembourgish. I loathr myself for saying this, having played there (in it's Zulu days) but it is just accepting the reality of its unpopularity and complexity.

There are a lot of good ideas here, but the problem I'm seeing is that there is very few unique cultures and languages that haven't been used in Terra, especially European ones. Although I like the idea of using a non-European language for the historical significance that Ikradon has been the outlier in Artania, it could be difficult.

I like James' idea earlier on, about leaving Neter Senek (Ancient Egyptian) as "a formal or classical language among a certain elite but the rest of the country might be said to speak a more accessible language". Luxembourgish I could support (but personally I think a Luxembourgish Alduria and Swiss Kanjor would be ideal), but I think a better accessible language could be one of the following:
- Lithuanian
- Slovenian
- Bosnian
- Macedonian
- Frisian
- Scots Gaelic
None of them, barring Slovenian (which is a small minority in Endralon—7%) and Scots Gaelic (another small minority in Kirlawa—2%) are used yet, which is good. I could see any of them being used, given the general Central European theme of Artania, from Celtic Kirlawa to German Dundorf and Hungarian Endralon.

Going back to what James said about "a formal or classical language among a certain elite", I would propose Coptic (already used in Cobura but could be reused), Amharic (again, used in Cobura), or just keeping the original Zulu that was in Ikradon before. Alternatively to using an African language, one of the languages listed above could be used, such as Scots Gaelic or Frisian, to represent an elite status, as those languages are more similar to those used in nations around Ikradon and there could be history written involving invasion/domination etc.

[jamescfm]

As I mentioned earlier, I don't think that the scope of this consultation involves imposing an entirely new cultural protocol on a country. Especially the kind being suggested here, which would represent a substantial departure from the recent history of the country as well as the current cultural protocol. For that reason, I want to make it clear that we will not be introducing a cultural protocol that defines the country as Luxembourgish, Gaelic, Frisian, Slovenian or any other "new" culture. I don't want to dampen the enthusiasm of players interested in developing Ikradon but the cultural protocol system is not designed to operate in this manner, with outside players on the forum making decisions about the cultural background of the country.

Regarding my initial suggestion, the three "additional" languages listed were simply the three largest minority languages within the current cultural protocol. If it clears up the confusion then perhaps the examples could be removed so that it would simply read:

The traditional or classic language used in Hawu Mumenhes/Ikradon has been Neter Senek (Ancient Egyptian) however the dominant vernacular language is Luthorian (English). Due to the country's immigrant background, multilingualism is common and a significant portion of the population speaks a language based on their cultural heritage.

With that said, I think it is important that we focus our attention on the decision to be made. While I am open to making minor changes to this proposal, as I have already said nothing wildly different is going to be approved. I don't know how this will change player opinion, so perhaps those still interested could offer their views on the three realistic options being considered, with some explanation as to why they believe this is the best option. The three options:

• retaining the cultural protocol in its current form
• retaining the cultural protocol with slight modifications (i.e. changing the dominant language to English)
• making the country culturally open

[Lucipher]

Personally as a player who has put in a request for a second account in Ikradon, I will be attempting to make the nation culturally open before changing the protocols. I would appreciate the assistance and/or approval of the mods in my endeavor, as I have stated multiple times that I don't want to go rogue on this, and I instead want a consensus on the best choice here. I am personally against making yet another English-speaking nation, especially one with an almost impossible second language.

[Aquinas]

I support James' proposal to maintain Ikradon/Hawu's CP whilst modifying the language demographics to make them more accessible for players. Ikradon/Hawu has been RPed as an African country since very late 2013, and there is a case for maintaining some continuity.

My only query to James would be whether under his proposal, Ancient Egyptian would still be a language option (although, importantly not the only language option!) for this nation under the Nation Renaming Guide. I presume it would be, but it would be helpful to clarify this.

I also support the proposal to set Solentia and Vorona to Open.