A worrying new rule?

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Re: A worrying new rule?

Postby robmark0000 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:49 am

Of course I say thanks for @aquinas as well for most importantly trying to protect my personal dignity, and also for offering his thoughts on the very topic. I have to add though that his calling for Chitin regarding his comment mixing BDSM and Endralon, is something I don't feel comfortable with. Of course I understand that the "anti-Rob/anti-Endralon" sentiment, as you called it, gone way too far (who else would understand it, if not me?), but I think it was an IC-motivated sentence from Chitin, not something he would deliberately want to harm me with, either my role-play or my personality.

Also, it would be far more comfortable if Chitin would make that comment on the In-Character Particracy Classic discord server (https://discord.gg/59G9fVveuJ), created for these kind of IC hits and debates, I think it wasn't more than simple poor taste from him. But as I said, many thanks to you @aquinas, its really good to have you here both in the game and in the particular thread, and gratitude for your complementing words!

Aquinas wrote:I suggest it would be more interesting, and more helpful, to talk about how and to what extent Moderation should regulate RP in terms of the whole issue of RP actions and their realistic consequences. Should there be a relatively light touch, which there has been through most of the game's history, or should we have Moderators getting much more involved, even to the extent of forcing players to accept war RP scenarios they do not want to consent to?


I think the obvious answer here should be a loud NO. Consent based RP is like liberal democracy; the only system where players can do whatever they want relatively freely. I wouldn't mind enforcing realistic stuff regarding minor issues (like assassinations, tribunals, etc.), but I think it is completely tyrannical to force players to RP in a way they definitely do not want to. Because that is not fun. That is the point when the game becomes unenjoyable, and the point I'll permanently leave. Hope that will never be the case, though.
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Re: A worrying new rule?

Postby colonelvesica » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:53 am

Right... so having unpacked everything, I'm not going to address every individual post; I would be here all morning and despite popular belief I do have RL commitments I need to address. However in the broad terms there are very specifics things I need to say, and even more specific things I need to address as I was personally called out repeatedly.

First.) To clarify something from Rob, he asked me to confirm that Rogue's proposed rule, or a rule like it would never be enforced. I couldn't do that. Not because I want to implement it or I have a hidden agenda but I can't tell the future, and I don't know what future Moderators were pursue, propose or change about this game. I did state I have zero intention of implementing such a rule as the rules is mostly covered under the Game Rules right now under Section 6.3. As well I am a great believer in the concept of Consent based Role Play; if the players involved don't consent to Role Play, it's not going to happen. I'll be the first to admit I've publicly feuded with Rob over the realism of his Role Play as a Player, trying to grasp how certain actions happen or certain companies are able to do other things. That being said, it's his Role Play and I defend his right to play that way, and despite the fact I have questioned Rob on how things work, that hasn't stopped me from Role Playing with him, answering questions from him on how certain things could be achieved, or in general have a mostly genial relationship with him. Rob to his credit is one of the most active players here, and James was right; losing him would be a loss to the community. While I question his Role Play, I want it never said that I question the player.

TLDR: The Rule Rob is worried about or a variant of it, other then what is in the Game Rules already will not be implemented as long as I am on the Moderation Team.

Second.) As I have been called out repeatedly for my Role Play and behaviour I'd like to address one specific thing from Rob, as it appears to be a point of contention;
A lot of negative things happened to Endralon since I played. Civil war, terrorist attacks, internal instability, economic recession, loosing Security Council elections, etc. But what I won't permit is that you end a story with 5-6 well-written military posts INSTEAD of me. Maybe once as a gift when you or Vesica loose one too ;)


I have noted that Hutori and myself get attacked consistently over our over focus on military role play and the fact we've never "lost" a war, or as Rob is stating, nothing bad ever happens in Hutori. I've been playing in Hutori for over 1,000 in game years, or over six years. In that time, internal instability was a constant during the heydays of the Republic-Monarchy debate, our own tackle with economic recessions and waning economic and military influence, the actual invasion of Hutori (which Rob you should be aware of as Augustus was the one who did it) which included the death of the Hutorian Crown Prince, the near capture of our capital city, the mauling of the lands of one of the wealthiest tribes of Indigenous people in Hutori, and a near constant cycle of having to rebuild Hutori after it was neglected. Rob you've been lucky that you've stayed in Endralon for 200 years straight and constantly RPed there, there were times I left Hutori and it was neglected from Role Play which has an immediate impact on it's standing internationally and even domestically. I will note I wouldn't consider the lose of a Security Council Election a negative, if only because that has to do with game mechanics rather then anything you control, but your point is noted.

To build on a point, and I would like this to be said outright as for some reason there seems to be an issue with it; if anyone has an issue with my Role Play, or feels like I'm not being reasonable even with my own Role Play, someone speak up so that I can explain why or how I'm doing something. James made a note that I was utilizing Hutori like the regional power that never left after my return, and that he had an issue with that. Next time, don't hesitate, mention to it to me. I noted that Hutori was still considered a Regional Power under the Voluntary Rankings, which I took as gospel out of reflex, and treated Hutori as I had before. This was clearly a mistake on my part, but again, please, offer me feedback.

Third.) I have little patience for scathing sarcasm which is only being employed in attempt to mock and discredit one another. Auditorii you started it, Rob you did not help by adding into it. Consider this a warning to both of you; I'm not going to tolerate it, I don't have the patience for it. If I want sarcasm I'll talk to my sixteen year old.

Fourth.) I have been consistently reminded that Godmodding/Power-Playing is not included within the Game Rules. This is true in the strictest sense of the definition that the Game Rules do not include definitions of either one. Instead we utilize Game Rules 6.3, which requires people to have realistic Role Play grounded in reality. As has been noted, Moderation rarely intervenes in Role Play on their own hook; since I've been a Moderator during all the tenures I count on one hand the total amount of times I've had to intervene in a Role Play. If anyone feels like 6.3 has been violated, I invite them to come forward and let us know, but I prefer Moderation doesn't involve itself in the miniate of individual Role Play unless there is a very clear reason for it; about the only time I want to have to critically analyze Role Play is when I do the rankings at the best, or during an investigation for breach of Game Rules or Community Guidelines at worst.

Fifth.) For those who kept their heads, and offered simple feedback; thank you.

Sixth.) I am keeping this topic open, as I have a feeling there will still be questions and there will be people that want follow up from me in regards to my statements, or things I didn't acknowledge. Feel free to ask, I am nothing if not always ready to answer, but I'm issuing a blanket warning: There will be no more fighting period, and now that I have unambiguously answered the question of the proposed rule, I hope it puts a lot of this to bed.

Seventh.) And I want this to have it's own point, as Aquinas made not of it specifically. Rob if you feel I have ever bullied you, belittled you, or unfairly targeted you, I am truly sorry and I apologize. As I said above, I think you are a valuable and contributing member of this community and the loss of you would leave a hole in this community.
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Re: A worrying new rule?

Postby robmark0000 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:20 pm

colonelvesica wrote:TLDR: The Rule Rob is worried about or a variant of it, other then what is in the Game Rules already will not be implemented as long as I am on the Moderation Team.


I am sure there will be further debates here, since this question itself tears up many wounds, however ultimately I got what I wanted, even though if Chitin is still quite on the case and I'd like to hear a response from him as well. Thank you for offering your opinion @vesica, and thank you for the confirmation.
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Re: A worrying new rule?

Postby jamescfm » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:31 pm

I am glad to see this response from colonelvesica and think it demonstrates a willingness to engage with players. Personally I am satisfied that this rule is not going to be implemented but it would perhaps be good to have a separate conversation in future about to what extent Moderation should regulate role-play (free from the clear personal issues permeating this discussion).

On the specific question of the perceived "unrealistic" nature of the role-play in Hutori, it is fair to say that I did not point this out at the time. I did advocate for downranking it but it was not something I felt strongly about. In reality I don't have strong feelings about ensuring that role-play is always realistic. The game involves accepting number of absurd premises for the world to work, so we should just focus on creating interesting and engaging narratives above anything else.

As I have already said I don't really think it is important what players like Auditorii and Mr.God think. Both have been happy to make snide comments either in this thread or in the Discord server but neither have responded to or defended themselves from the claims being made against them. Since robmark seems to be satisfied that the issue is resolved then I am too.
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Re: A worrying new rule?

Postby alaskancrabpuffs21 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:33 pm

From my perspective A. I don't like this proposed rule B. I don't think this rule is gonna be implemented. I knew this was the case the whole time however I am glad that people are starting to settle down and that it has been resolved! It is always good to see, Thanks Vesica for your time taken to write that (that is a large post after all). I am happy to see the problem resolved!
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Re: A worrying new rule?

Postby Wu Han » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:02 pm

The matter is resolved, so there's no real point, but I just want to pass along some of my thoughts:

(A) I think the primary concern expressed in this thread, at least from my perspective, is the bullying that Rob has faced. It's certainly something I've noticed and I'm glad that people are recognizing it and taking a more constructive tone. Out-of-character bullying is not acceptable, and not conducive to role play—the reason we're all here, after all.

(B) I want to express my appreciation to the current moderation team, and Vesica specifically, for responding rather openly and quickly when concerns have been raised, and for facilitating open conversations on the nature of the game's functions. Further, I appreciate the openness to be introspective and consider how past actions may have influenced others and/or the game writ large. I hope that this tone from the moderation team can be replicated by the community in the coming weeks and months as players inevitably raise more concerns/ideas about the game.

(C) Finally, I just want to reiterate my belief that conversations about rule changes, game reforms, etc., and moderator responses should always take place on the forum (as in this case) rather than the Discord. I think it's far more constructive in this format as cooler heads tend to prevail, and there are fewer miscommunications. The Discord is a good place for talking with others and cooperating on RP ideas, but the forum still remains the best (in my opinion) for discussions on the nature of the game itself, and for having the positions of the current moderation team expressed clearly and openly when concerns are raised.
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