Malivia and its RP

Talk and plan things about the game with other players.

Malivia and its RP

Postby Aquinas » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:05 pm

As some of you know, I inactivated my account yesterday in Malivia. There were two reasons for this.

The first was that I do not feel able to continue playing this game unless I can at least pretend to myself to some degree that plagiarism is being taken seriously. I have still received no reassurance at all from the Moderation Team about this, despite having contacted them privately (my messages were ignored) and despite having been promised a response on the forum in two and a half hours (it has now been more like 16 hours). So on those grounds alone, I am hesitating to return.

The second reason I inactivated my account in Malivia is because a point has been reached where I find myself being told on a daily basis that I am OOCly behaving in a "racist"/"offensive" way because of how I am ICly RPing there. As several at least of you will know, this all began with a post Vesica made on the forum, which he later edited, but which nevertheless people got to see. From there, it has been repeated on Discord. Today, Rogue/Mr God came out with it on the forum.

It has always been my understanding that in Particracy RP, there is a dividing line between OOC (out-of-character) and IC (in-character), and that we are not meant to get the two confused. So a person who RPs a racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever party or character in-game, for example, is not assumed to be a racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever person. This is certainly the approach which has always been taken in the past. Now...it does not seem quite so clear.

There are two reasons why I am particularly concerned about this. One is that, particularly given a Moderator is the one who started all of this and that Moderation's and Wouter's apparent spokesperson is continuing it, I am worried Moderation is going to simply shut down my RP in Malivia. If that's the way it's going...there is not much point continuing it any further. From my experience, I have already come under pressure to self-censure my RP, including from Moderation. That is uncomfortable enough...but more formal/official censorship, I fear, will not be far behind.

The second reason is that frankly, it becomes tiresome and no fun to be getting these accusations every day, as is happening at the moment. If I am going to RP, I want to be able to enjoy it without being harried all the time with that kind of stuff.

So at this point, I simply want to ask the community and the Moderation Team what they want me to do. If there is enough enthusiasm for the idea of me going back to Malivia to continue my work there, then maybe I will, although as I say, if the OOC attacks carry on like they have been recently, I may end up giving up. Similarly, if there is a consensus that I should drop my work in Malivia, then I will do that. I really, really do not want to have to delete my Malivian RP posts, but if it gets to a point where that becomes necessary to draw a line under the whole issue, then I suppose I will have to do that.

Speaking more generally, I am having questions about whether it is a good idea to have poorer nations in the game, because it seems like there is an expectation that if you RP those nations, you have to RP them as though they are first world countries that do not have any of the human problems which poorer countries experience so much in the real world. I think the community needs to decide, fundamentally, whether it wants those nations, or whether they have just become "too hot to handle".
User avatar
Aquinas
 
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby Aquinas » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:12 am

As can be seen, Moderation has not shown the courtesy to respond to or even acknowledge my previous post.

My hope was Moderation would give me some reassurances, which would make it possible for me to resume my RP in Malivia. Vesica has pointedly declined to do this.

On the official Discord server, Auditorii has suggested anyone other than me would have been banned from the game on the basis of my RP work, and has revealed he has contacted the game owner, Wouter, complaining that my RP is OOCly racist and offensive. Vesica also repeated his accusations on the server, for example:

Vesica wrote:I made one comment in a thread where I stated I felt some of your prior Role Play was racist at worst and racial stereotyping at best. I admit as such, I have personally felt that about your Malivian Role Play.


Vesica wrote:...I am stating your Role Play is that of racial stereotyping at best and out right racist at worst.


Vesica wrote:...I think the stories you are writing are racially insensitive at best


At the same time, Vesica made clear that my RP in Malivia would be investigated by Moderation in the event there was any formal complaint. Some examples where this was intimated or explicitly stated:

Vesica wrote:I have not censured you in any way or nor made any movement directly against your Role Play as I have no received any direct complaints.


Vesica wrote:I have received so official complaints about your Role Play in thr appropriate channel and thread, and until I do so, you are free to continue to tell the stories as you please.


Vesica wrote:...if Chitin or I receive an complaints about players Role Play we will investigate them at that time


Vesica wrote:As long as that Role Play doesn't violate the community guidelines or game rules, I will not intervene. If players have an issue with others Role Play or being offensive or racist, there is a dedicated thread for that for Moderation to investigate
Your Role Play was never logged there


Given Vesica's views on my RP are already clear, this places me in an impossible position in relation to my hopes to return to Malivia, because it is clear that if I do so, Auditorii or Rogue will submit a complaint, and then Vesica will get the opportunity he wants to ban my Malivian RP (possibly along with me as well).

I have received feedback from a number of players privately, and interestingly, despite being very different individuals, they unanimously advised me that (a) my RP is not "racist" or "offensive" and (b) that the very small group of individuals who are claiming it is know that this is ridiculous but are bandying about the accusation anyway simply to smear me. This does, of course, tally with the obvious observation that in every single instance where the accusation has been made, it has been where the person has been in a disagreement with me about OOC issues completely unrelated to Malivia, and has then decided to bring up the subject of my RP from nowhere.

Rather than taking responsibility for his role in the smear campaign which has been going on, Vesica sought to try to wash his hands of his involvement, and he did so in terms which I personally found derogatory and condescending. Some examples from the public discussion on Discord:

Vesica wrote:...you personally do not enter my thoughts on a daily or even a weekly basis.


Vesica wrote:...you frankly don't rate that high.


Vesica wrote:Needing a smear campaign would imply I rate you high enough on my to do list to have the time or patience for such an endeavor. I don't.


Vesica wrote:There is no organised player base out to get you. That would imply you rate high enough on that many players agendas rather than enjoying the game. I sincerely doubt it.


Vesica wrote:You are not that important to me.


Vesica wrote:...you are, as I have stated repeatedly, not that high on my list.


The repeated and completely unnecessary use of this type of language was experienced by me as demeaning. Vesica is aware others are watching the signals he, as a Moderator, sends out, and he knows that if he behaves towards me in this manner, then he is giving the signal to certain others to follow his cue. And that, sadly, is what the root of the problem is here.

Those who have been around Particracy for long enough will appreciate that for a Moderator to attack a player's RP as OOCly "racist" and "offensive" is unprecedented. This has never, to my knowledge, ever been done before. The borderline between OOC and IC has always previously been understood and respected by Moderators, and it has always been possible for players to RP freely without Moderators publicly branding their RP "racist" or "offensive" and publicly dropping the hint to others to submit complaints against it. This is territory we have never, ever, to my knowledge, been in before.

Clearly, PT Classic's RP environment is no longer what it was before. The new approach will not only be stifling to RP, but will also likely be a recipe for the most vicious of OOC feuds, since it opens the floodgates for community members to OOCly weaponise IC RP, accusing each other of being racist/sexist/homophobic/prejudiced/offensive/whatever purely on the basis of IC RP posts.

I am left thinking of the some of the great RPers who are not participating here at this moment, but who I would have liked to see return. Polites, or Jalal, as examples. If they were to return to the game now, I feel I would have to warn them they may find the RP environment different now to what it had been before.

I find it very, very sad that this has happened in Particracy. I have given Moderation an opportunity to give me the reassurances I would need to make returning to Malivia a credible proposition, but that has simply not happened. Moderation has essentially stamped out my Malivia project.
User avatar
Aquinas
 
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
Location: UK

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby jellybean » Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:12 am

For my part, I've quite enjoyed reading and interacting with your RP in Malivia. I am sorry you feel you must leave, and I hope the circumstances will change so that you can return. (If you choose not to continue with Malivia, for whatever reason, you would be more than welcome in Hobrazia).

I have noticed the toxicity of some of the OOC disagreements in this community, though I enjoy my interactions with enough people to outweigh it. Personally, I have chosen to minimize engagement with the users I've found frustrating. I have also left the Discord - I think that Discord as a platform somewhat encourages disagreements to get out of hand. Forums can be toxic too of course, but the time it takes to write and submit a forum post puts a bit of a filter between your brain and your words.
User avatar
jellybean
 
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2021 8:49 pm

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby robmark0000 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:11 am

jellybean wrote:For my part, I've quite enjoyed reading and interacting with your RP in Malivia. I am sorry you feel you must leave, and I hope the circumstances will change so that you can return. (If you choose not to continue with Malivia, for whatever reason, you would be more than welcome in Hobrazia).

I have noticed the toxicity of some of the OOC disagreements in this community, though I enjoy my interactions with enough people to outweigh it. Personally, I have chosen to minimize engagement with the users I've found frustrating. I have also left the Discord - I think that Discord as a platform somewhat encourages disagreements to get out of hand. Forums can be toxic too of course, but the time it takes to write and submit a forum post puts a bit of a filter between your brain and your words.


I echo every single words, especially after I left the Official Particracy Discord Server as well.
Information: Player Profile here, Musical Profile here, Political Compass here.
World Congress Coordinator

"Only the Young can run. So run, and run, and run!" ~ Taylor Swift
User avatar
robmark0000
 
Posts: 1214
Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:12 am
Location: Hungary / Magyarország (my liberal soul is in prison here, big big sadness)

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby NuclearGandhi69 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:57 am

For my part, I've quite enjoyed reading and interacting with your RP in Malivia. I am sorry you feel you must leave, and I hope the circumstances will change so that you can return. (If you choose not to continue with Malivia, for whatever reason, you would be more than welcome in Hobrazia).

I have noticed the toxicity of some of the OOC disagreements in this community, though I enjoy my interactions with enough people to outweigh it. Personally, I have chosen to minimize engagement with the users I've found frustrating. I have also left the Discord - I think that Discord as a platform somewhat encourages disagreements to get out of hand. Forums can be toxic too of course, but the time it takes to write and submit a forum post puts a bit of a filter between your brain and your words.


I agree with Jellybean. I too enjoyed the RP done in Malivia and whilst I don't participate much on the Particracy Discord, I'm going to stop using it as well.
NuclearGandhi69
 
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2019 5:50 pm

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby Reddy » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:34 am

I completely disagree with this new idea that the line between OOC and IC should be muddied. I have had my differences with Aquinas in the past but this is simply unacceptable to me. I hope the matter will be resolved.

I am sad to hear quite a few players saying that they intend to leave the official Discord. I beg you to reconsider as it still has many advantages to belong to it e.g. it facilitates easier cooperation and communication. I hope you will consider this before leaving.
To live outside the law, you must be honest.
Reddy
 
Posts: 4116
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:20 am

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby Kubrick » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:03 pm

The RP in Malivia has always been entertaining to me, it brings to light many mundane small things that do happen in real life too. The most striking of those posts was the cardboard policeman. It's that direct, realistic, and simply funny RP that trademarks any nation that Aquinas roleplays. The only thing I can find mildly over the top is the cow dung mountains, but even that seems to be a very Malivian problem and not related to India.

To me it seems that several people in this community who act very big on Discord, and occasionally on this forum, are trying to utilize cancel culture in their feud against Aquinas. Farsun/Auditorii is a prime example of this, a man who has never roleplayed a democratic nation now decries to the Discord, and apparently Wouter by his own accord, how racist Aquinas must be to roleplay this. By that same logic he would be a full on fascist. I guess we can outlaw people that roleplay authoritarian nations too? But we know that's not the issue because I'm convinced this is just some edgy kids using cancel culture to bother Aquinas because he reacts to riling him up. Not to mention the unprofessional responses of Vesica on the Discord either.

I echo the above posts by Jellybean and Robmark; come visit Dorvik. It's a broad-spectrum democratic nation, although be careful because apparently that's nation raiding.

Reddy wrote:I completely disagree with this new idea that the line between OOC and IC should be muddied. I have had my differences with Aquinas in the past but this is simply unacceptable to me. I hope the matter will be resolved.

I am sad to hear quite a few players saying that they intend to leave the official Discord. I beg you to reconsider as it still has many advantages to belong to it e.g. it facilitates easier cooperation and communication. I hope you will consider this before leaving.


And if anyone was having doubts about how ridiculous this is, that Reddy out of all people posts here after his personal problems with Aquinas says enough to me.
"see yah i think kubs is right" ~Zanz

"I’m pretty sure your buddy Kubrick was upset he couldn’t just resort to his old ways" ~Auditorii

"You can blame Polites and Kubrick for that nightmare" ~Doc
User avatar
Kubrick
 
Posts: 1494
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:47 pm

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby Zanz » Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:32 pm

Am I racist, too, for playing ICly into stereotypes of steppe peoples and of post-Soviet countries? Am I anti-Semitic for writing characters and plots who have been anti-Yeudi? Are some of the best RPers in PT history racist for having played into stereotypes of the Roma (Jalal), or engaging in all of this IC stereotyping with many of us (Polites)?

The obvious answer is that of course our IC role play does not speak to our OOC character. In a game that tolerates IC Nazism without batting an eye it is telling that we're now all of a sudden having to hear about Aquinas' RP being across the line.

I do want to say, Vesica, I think it's important that you remember that your words have heavy consequences because of your position. As much of what Aquinas posted was occurring on the Discord, a new player (FerG) had just recently joined the Discord. That player was very obviously out of the loop of this game's usual drama but, I think because a mod was also involved, immediately jumped in to join against Aquinas. We very rarely get new people, we only get the same old faces again and again - new players, when they come around, really don't need moderation setting a bad example for them, even if it is stuff that's said glibly like many of the more tenured players do.
Just a bunch of shit.
User avatar
Zanz
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:13 pm

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby Pragma » Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:38 pm

I can only say that I feel like Aquinas' RP has never come from a place of hatred or distain for Indian people and that his quirky style of RP is very much not intended to be hateful or mean-spirited. Some of the RP I found entertaining and it contrasts to Vascania which shares a similar culture but different storylines.

I also don't think that Vesica is trying to come for Aquinas in a malicious way and is simply calling it as he sees it. I try not to play too harshly into stereotypes about an ethnic group I'm RPing with and I understand that sometimes it can appear insensitive to those who prefer other styles of play.

I don't think anyone is trying to act in a deliberately unpleasant way and I think we need to be thoughtful about the language we use, while also reflecting on our own conduct.
Currently playing in: Cildania

Image Vascanian Empire
User avatar
Pragma
 
Posts: 1416
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:29 pm
Location: your mother

Re: Malivia and its RP

Postby Aquinas » Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:53 pm

I am grateful for, and personally touched, by the support I have received from players, both privately and on this thread.

For the reasons explained in my previous post, I am serving under a nation ban in all but name in Malivia at the moment, due to the situation Vesica, as a Moderator, has created.

In order to move forwards, I propose Moderation give me an assurance they see nothing in my RP in Malivia which they would wish to move against, and that in terms of how they enforce the rules, they see no reason why I should hesitate to rejoin there.

A personal apology from Vesica, and an acknowledgement of the difficulties he has caused for me personally and also some others who were involved in Malivia's RP, would be appreciated.
User avatar
Aquinas
 
Posts: 9796
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
Location: UK

Next

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

cron